sexual harassment by young kids

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ok so i work with a girl who's training to be a primary school teacher. she's currently doing a couple of weeks teaching (in my old primary school) with kids aged around 11/12. so far things have been not so good. - as oft happens kids hear "student teacher" and kick back and do as little work as possible. this is all well and good, kids are kids and i thought this way myself - but a handful of boys in the class have also taken to slapping the teacher's ass as she walks passed. this def crosses the line from harmless mischief to something a lot creepier (i don't think i'd have ever done this, even during my obnoxious adolescent phase)(though the kids in question are very young so it hopefully is something they'll grow out of)

ok so i'm not sure what my point is, i'll just ask: have any of you ever encountered sexual harassment by young kids? how best to deal with it? did other people brush it off or was it taken seriously?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 15 March 2004 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

11 and 12?! jesus christ, the idea of a grown womans ass at that age would have been the equivalent of looking in the ark.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 15 March 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember the hassle young female teachers would get at my school quite well, it was an all boys school which didn't help.

I think in hindsight some of it was sort of sexual harassment, I remember people saying things like "Miss are you a virgin" and things. It only really happened at 13 or so but it's pretty bad looking back on it, at that age I don't remember thinking it was terrible, I guess you don't know any better and just assume teachers are cyborgs.

Is it a mixed school?

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

yep it's a mixed school. i'm not sure what the girls in the class make of it, although i know the perpetrators are supposed to be popular among the ladies.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 15 March 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"Everybody loves a (sexually motivated) clown so why can't you"

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

send them to the principal's office! case closed.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

six of the best.

― hmmm (hmmm), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

being a student teacher, i think she wants to prove that she can sort these problems out on her own. the class is normally taught by an experienced teacher, who's very strict and has total control. she's spoken to him about the problems in the class - although i'm not sure she mentioned the ass-slapping - and they both agreed that he would leave her to sort the problems herself - as any intervention on his part would undermine her authority.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

it shouldn't be brushed off, purely for the basic lack of disrespect shown alone from student to teacher. i would never have done something like this. i would say her best bet would've been to ridicule the boy(s) somehow (but without sinking to their level as it were), they should def be given some sort of punishment as a deterrent, but obviously this would be very difficult especially if she's not in possession of high self-esteem.

i blame Busted btw

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, guess the kids just need to learn what is the line and where they cross it - they need to experience some PAIN for their actions and then they won't do it again.

in the old days it'd be a public spanking with their pants down. now i guess you can give them a detention after school.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

weirdly i feel strongly about this sort of thing. teachers failing to command the respect of pupils is one of the biggest problems in schools here imo, tho the fault is more with the pupils, and maybe their parents to an extent (why are they not aware that touching the teacher in any way is not acceptable?). i'd make it a 'yellow card' offence at least (if not suspension) and they'd have to do 'community work' for the school in their own time. Maurice Bronson eat yer heart out.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree that this kind of thing crosses a line and should not be tolerated. People have a right not to be bullied or sexually harrassed/assaulted at work, regardless of the age of the perpetrator.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

says the dirty vicar!!!

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

In fact, the student teacher might want to think of making this an Industrial Relations/safety at work issue. Yes yes.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

says the dirty vicar!!!

those deacons loved it.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:38 (twenty-two years ago)

my mum is a teacher, actually, i might ask her about this. although my mum is quite intimidating, and i couldn't imagine any adolescent living to tell the tale if they tried this. plus, i think she's only taught in all-girls schools.

in my experience, detentions and punishments don't guarantee control of the classroom - although they are a useful weapon and a reminder of who's in charge.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i wonder if in the States the teacher could sue both the school and the pupil's parents...

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

yes. would they win? perhaps.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

americans be suin'

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

interesting. i know one of the kids' parents were russians, who were deported from ireland back to their own country. he was able to stay in the country. i think he lives with a foster family. he's the most difficult class member, she says he seems "troubled"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

t-rouble

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

she should tell him to keep his busy hands to himself or he'll end up in a gulag like his parents

(sorry that's bad taste but needs must when the devil slaps your ass)

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

on the one hand, these are pubescent kids exploring the parameters of what is and isn't allowable behavior, and I think they're entitled to ask questions that would definitely be inappropriate in purely adult (professional or polite) company.
But the ass-slapping is a no-go.
She should say, "You know, among certain indigenous peoples in South America, it's customary to cut off a young man's hand if it goes where it's not welcome." And then she should punch him hard in the nose so he bleeds like fuck.

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

That'll learn the little bastards!

Seriously, though, what gives these kids the nerves to do something like that? At that age I could barely talk to girls my age without feeling borderline suicidal.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 15 March 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

when i worked at a local high school as the music teaching assistant, i was sexually harassed by some fourteen year olds. because i wasn't a teacher i was prevented from taking any direct action, i could only report their behaviour to the teacher i worked for. she threatened to take their music room privileges away from them and they all got detention. they didn't give me shit again. gradually when they realised that i was a fellow musician, they started to treat me with respect, but it stunk how i had to "prove" my credibility to them just cos i am female.

this kind of behaviour is fucked, and these kids have to know who is in charge and that this kind of behaviour towards women is unacceptable. i'm all for detentions...i know that isn't going to make these little shits feel very warm towards their teacher but what else are you going to do? making fun of them isn't a good solution, they'll just go home and tell mummy and daddy and get you in the shit.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i wonder if sam has any advice for this thread?

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

when I was in first grade, me and two other kids got in Big Trouble for sexually harrassing a girl in our class. Yes, first grade! I don't know why I was included with the other two because I didn't say anything to the girl. I don't even know what was said. It was all kind of bizarre.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

advice? well when I subbed in the fourth grade I received similar treatment from the boys.

A lot of vulgar comments and harrassing behavior as a regular teacher of middle schoolers too.

Advice. . .hmm. I've written students up for sexual harrassment before and invoked our state law for removal of students when a teacher feels her safety is in danger. So yeah, there's that.

(I also like to insult their manhood. usually brings 'em down a notch.)

― Ask For Janice (thatgirl), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

why don't more little girls sexually harrass teachers? that is not a request though it sounds like one.

― Menelaus Darcy (Menelaus Darcy), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:11 (twenty-two years ago)

my friend got kicked out of school for "sexually harassing" her teacher. in reality, she just had big boobs and he claimed she was flaunting them at him. (she wasn't.) just who is sexually harassing who?

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:13 (twenty-two years ago)

god, it always comes back to big tits with me, doesn't it?

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

some of my male collegues receive unwelcome sexual advances and comments from female students. Those situations though can potentially cause more problems for them than the student.

― Ask For Janice (thatgirl), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Di - wait, so your friend was the student and she got kicked from school because the TEACHER said she was flaunting her boobs?

Umm... yes, that sounds somehow a bit wrong.

― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:39 (twenty-two years ago)

It's particularly humiliating when someone younger and smaller than you feels he can intimidate you. It's happened to me. Maybe it's not worse than other forms, but you just feel so weak, because you know if you fight back, you're going to be made to look like the bully.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah thats right trayce.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Ugh that sort of thing makes me angry. "Put your womanhood away, stop being a slut!" when its probably a young 15 year old girl who's as confused and uncomfortable herself with her suddenly-huge chest.

I'm so glad I didnt err.. "develop" in high school. People were merciless - guys and girls - what is it about teenagers, argh. I remember a guy in my year stealing things like my gloves off me, shoving them down his pants and saying "come and get them bitch".

God I hated school, I really fucking hated it.

― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

me too. at primary school i was the first kid in a bra, the guys used to sneak into the girls changing rooms at the swimming pool and take my bras and play catch with them. teachers didn't do dick about it. i was actually glad to go to an all-female high school. everybody says to me "oh but girls are sooo catty, you must wish you'd been at a co-ed". yeah true, some girls were mean, but they didn't steal my fucking bras and sexually harass me in other ways. anyway, i'm getting off topic, sorry for the whole angsty "i'll NEVER get over it" spiel.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

kids today are incredibly fast. . .it's so different than when we were younger

― Ask For Janice (thatgirl), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it really all that different? I think that's a huge myth perpetrated by frustrated parents unable or unwilling to parent their children.

― Andrew (enneff), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 03:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it definitely depends on the environment in which they were raised. The kids I knew at that age (this was 4-5 years ago) would never have harrassed a teacher like that.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 16 March 2004 03:24 (twenty-two years ago)

When I taught in Japan, some of the junior high school boys would say things to me in the halls, like "hi, baby." I got offended but one of the (female) teachers told me that that was just their way of using the few English phrases that they knew. Hmmm, funny they never used any of the mulitple phrases I taught them in class...

(As for the student teacher, I think she should talk to her advisor and the adminsistration as to how can she can discipline these kids. If they feel free to treat their teacher this way, this must be a horrible environment for the girl students.)

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

That example also demonstrates cultural harrassment--i.e. if you teach a kid a bad word or insulting phrase in a foreign language, they'll use it at any opportunity.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 16 March 2004 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

(note that the above post is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand)

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 16 March 2004 03:31 (twenty-two years ago)

so, after another week teaching the little brats, she's gotten to grips with them and they've actually started behaving themselves - especially (and most importantly) when the inspector came in to examine how she was getting on. but, the experienced teacher (who would normally be in charge of the class) is very keen for her to report the ass-slapping to the headmaster - which would apparently result in a suspension or some Very Serious Punishment for the culprits. but she's not keen to do anything about it - she finally has them under control and doesn't want to make the atmosphere more hostile or create more of a fuss.

wot says ilx? let the matter drop? take the matter further?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 22 March 2004 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

My friend Jez and I got called lesbians by some Estonian kids on a bus.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 22 March 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

killian, being in control also means making it clear what will and won't be tolerated. If they think they can do things w/out consequences they'll keep upping the ante.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 00:00 (twenty-one years ago)

how did she manage to get them under control?

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 02:06 (twenty-one years ago)

trainee primary school teachers are the most fucking irritating people on the whole planet. anything that makes their lives more difficult is fine by me.

― fcussen (Burger), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 02:17 (twenty-one years ago)

No way should this type of behavior even be given the appearance of toleration. She has already dropped the ball by not ensuring that the first kid that touched her was suspended from school, preferably immediately with his parents coming from work to pick him up and take him home. This is how future rapists start to learn their chops.

I feel sorry for your friend for not having the courage to immediately show these kids the consequences of their actions. Even though she may now be in control of them, the impression they have already gotten from the relatively minor treatment of their physical assault on a female is unhealthy for them personally, let alone the class. Do I sound overly strict? Maybe. I don't think so. I'm tired of boys learning at an early age that it's OK for girls to be touched and groped when they don't want it, and I'm tired of girls being shown that their bodies are fair game.

― webcrack (music=crack), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 02:24 (twenty-one years ago)

and I'm tired of girls being shown that their bodies are fair game.

the college i'm in is mostly trainee primary teachers. when i heard two of them discussing how they were getting dolled up to walk through the corridors of the technical college across town, i decided it was time to leave.

― fcussen (Burger), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 02:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd expel these miscreants and leave them to sort out their shattered lives on their own.

(luckily I'm not a teacher).

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 02:44 (twenty-one years ago)

"killian, being in control also means making it clear what will and won't be tolerated. If they think they can do things w/out consequences they'll keep upping the ante."

yr right, the kids definitely deserve a serious punishment. but i think cos she's only there for a few weeks to get teaching experience, she doesn't want to inflict any major punishment on anyone.i think she's prob just relieved that she has them under control to a reasonable extent at the moment, and doesn't want to rock the boat too much.

"how did she manage to get them under control?"

dunno. either she got them to like her/terrified them to the extent that they are now showing respect.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

OMG this is awful. I would have dfinitely grabbed the child in question & frogmarched him to the head's office & invovled his parents. The fact that the situation is now under control is irrelevant, it happened in the first place & should have been dealt with straight away. If a man walked up to you in the street & did it & then proceded to do it at every opportunity you would do something about it!

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Should she have reported the incidents to the head when they happened?
Definitely. The problem she now has is the lapse in time since they happened. Assuming the headmaster is OK at his job, I think she should still go to him, and let him decide. The mistake she made, and is continuing to make is to think that being a good teacher means sorting out everything yourself. If something out of the ordinary happens (and ass-slapping certainly falls into this category)
then you need to get help from headmasters etc. It sounds like she thinks these incidents somehow reflect badly on her teaching, and they really don't. I also think there's a good chance that any improvement in control she has now will disappear in her last week there (kids will assume anything that happens in that week can't get them into much trouble) unless she acts now.

― Joe Kay (feethurt), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

If she thinks that being a teacher is about getting the kids to like her, she shouldn't be a teacher.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan and Webcrack OTM.

My mentor teacher told me (after one kid choked another kid in class and the police came and arrested him. i felt bad for both and was very upset). sorry, too much parenthetical comment. . .

anyway she told me not to feel sorry or bad about causing the kids to be punished. She said they chose to do what they did and did not deserve my sympathy for what they got as a result.

I have to remind myself of this often b/c I do care about them. Even the bad ones.

This morning a mother came to me b/c i wrote her son up in second period and he's suspended for the rest of the week. he's been suspended so often now it's likely he will be expelled. she was crying and i felt momentarily bad for writing him up. Then i reminded myself that this kid knew exactly what he was doing and it was the administration's decision to suspend him. i'm definitely not the only one who writes him up.

as for the groping. . .webcrack is completely right. i've had many girls come to me saying how the boys are always grabbing at them, harassing them. these girls often aren't confident enough to speak up and instead suffer through it. not a good environment.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Too late to punish the kids at this point -- it would look arbitrary and mean, and the fact that the behavior is now good indicates at least some awareness on the kids' part that they were bad before.

Should she have punished them at the time? Yes -- but the moment has passed.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with Colin here. The "damage" in this case is done but in the future she needs to remember that as an authority figure part of her job description is to wield authority.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i'll be sure to pass on yr worldly advice next time i see her, dan.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

HOORAY I AM WORLDLY

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

Okay im only twelve and i dont mean to butt in-to your "adult conversation" but i think that if a kid slaps a teachers ass then thats fine!, its only becouse they are going through pubity that they do things like that anyway and if parents would let kids have sex at a younger age (12+) then kids would not have the erge to do things like this, as there sexual output has been for-filled, oh and if they are any adults here that are horny for 12 year olds then E-mail me please

― Laurie, Friday, 9 April 2004 08:22 (twenty-one years ago)

hilarious i'm sure

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 9 April 2004 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

whatever you say, officer.
xpost

― oops (Oops), Friday, 9 April 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

ok laurie, i'll tell my friend that the simplest solution would be just to have sex with the offending 12 year olds.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 9 April 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

wasn't there a group sex scene of 12-year-olds in Stephen King's IT? What the fuck was up with THAT? was he really on that much cocaine?

― Kingfish Balzac (Kingfish), Friday, 9 April 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

the constructed misspellings above are quite charming.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Friday, 9 April 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

she's not a patch on aja

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 April 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm almost certain there's a town in the middle of MN called Pubity and that I have in fact been through it.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 9 April 2004 17:27 (twenty-one years ago)

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