Two-Faced Fuckheads

Additional talking points: does it make a difference if they talk shit to people you know or if it's to people you don't know? And is there levels here - ie exagerration versus outright lies? If they still act like they care, does it matter? Is this a deep seated character flaw that needs psychological help because of their insecurities, or is it a sign that they really don't give a shit about you? Why do I attract people like this into my life anyhow?

i personally would be real fucked off if it was one of my close friends. you are so justified in being angry. if a friend has low self-esteem, i don't think that should take priority over friendship at all. but i think, tell them that what they have done has pissed you off, and make it clear that they are on probation. if they do it again, its time to say, fuckyou, see ya. i think there probably is a difference between exxageration and outright lying though.

I definitely agree, outright lying is much worse than exagerration. The thing is though that everyone says to me actions speak louder than words, but aren't words actions? I am very bad at confronting people I am close to, so I need all the advice I can get, sorry if I ask the same questions multiple times :)

spreading lies is an action. even if it wasn't, you should be able to trust your friends.

if the normal side comes up, i tell the truth about my friends. if the scarred side comes up, i lie like a motherfucker.

I dont think low self esteem is an adequate excuse for slagging off one of your friends. You are justified in being offended; I cant really respect people who are unable to say the stuff they spread behind my back to my face.

lying to self aggrandize is a despreaste attempt to be loved
Slagging behind backs is unforgiveable nad the ONLY way to resolve it is to confront !

It depends on what "talking shit" means. I've had people who have been my friends, and who have done stupid or offensive things or have otherwise made my life unnecessarily difficult. Would talking with my other friends about the stupid or offensive things that friend X did constitute "talking shit"? If so, then guilty as charged, but I'm going to keep doing it, because sometimes the only way to blow off steam -- let alone to understand a situation! -- is to talk with people who understand why you're pissed off. If we couldn't do that, there'd be a lot of people who wouldn't have very many friends, since no one could deal with their neuroses and failings without having the chance to vent about it periodically to a sympathetic ear. But I'm sure that, to the person being talked about, it might well seem like talking shit. (And yes, I know it cuts both ways. I'm sure it's happened to me without my knowing it.)

On the other hand, if you just mean saying bad things about your friends to cut them down and make yourself feel good, then of course that's crap, all the more so if it's based on fabrications and half-truths.

So I guess whether it's constructive venting, or destructive backstabbing, really depends on what they're saying, and whether you've done anything that they'd be justified in (a) talking about and (b) being angry about, or at least frustrated by. And that's not a question I can answer, of course.

Ally, I really want to give you advice or something but everything I can think of to say seems trite.

People talk about other people, it's just a fact that will never, ever change. Sometimes it can be justified, like they might be your friends talking to each other about you because they are worried about you or something. But even then, friends should never say things about you to each other that they wouldn't want you to hear.

Virtually the only thing I can think of to say is that if they are talking about you behind your back with malicious intent or to make themselves look good, then they really aren't your friends. God that sounds so tired, but I really think it's true.

It sounds like a really weird situation, I don't know if I understand it fully.

As to the confrontation side: you're not doing them any favours by letting them get away with it. They will be assholes their whole lives if everybody lets them. Just approach them in a measured, calm fashion. Know what you want to say. Know and be prepared to ask for what you want from the confrontation be it an apology, a promise to never cross you path again...

The past year I have come to the conclusion that I have my faults. Now my friend laughed when I said this. But how many people realize this? We all walk through life thinking what we do is right. No, it isn't. So when I moan that a friend is a hypocrite, then maybe he figures I am a histrionic bitch who is too outspoken. Guess he's right/wrong and so am I. Life is too short.

People who talk shit usually make themselves look foolish, and anybody not smart enough to see through their games isn't worth worrying about. Don't read your publicity, weigh it.

still waiting for u to justify my ally

I've only had people IM about me behind my back, so it's not quite the same. In my case I just ignore the person I used to be friendly w/cause it's quite likely I'm never going to encounter him in real life.

That sort thing is a real sign of low self worth and a need for acceptance. If possible, I would just stop talking to them or blank them. But if it's a situation where you have to see this person on a regular basis, I would call them on it. Not in an angry pissed off way -- you don't want to let them think they've got to you -- but just express that you know what they're doing and what you know think of them now. That might sober them up to how pathetic their behavior has been.

Talking shit = complete lies just to make themselves look like whatever it is they believe people will like them better as. If it was just venting about something that happened or if it was even sort of true stuff, that'd be one thing (not to mention that under that definition I am talking shit right now :), and I wouldn't have a problem. Because it'd be true, and it'd be a problem to deal with. I don't exactly know how to confront it under this circumstance.

One of them was dealt with though, in a very positive way for me that allows relationship to not be destroyed. So score one. Second one is a bit delicate because I don't know how mentally balanced this person is all the time, she does things occasionally that seem completely out of the blue insane and I don't really want to confront her, even though I know that ignoring it and just getting increasingly cold will just completely destroy our former friendship.

I mean, the situation is as this. The second person is my occasionally mentioned roommate. Over the past couple months, her behavior has become increasingly weird (imitating me, following me around nonstop) but besides my occasional need to blow off steam about it, it really wasn't that bad. Then suddenly, around when I started dating Ramon, she just started becoming completely different. To my face, she's still very nice, but I started hearing more and more from mutual friends that she was saying things that were completely untrue that made me sound like a complete asshole (examples: that her and Ramon were seriously dating and that he was cheating on her with me because I wouldn't back off, which everyone who's met the two of them could vouch for as being completely false; that she pays all or nearly all of the rent each month - she's given me 3.5 months of her share of the rent since she moved in 7 months ago, exactly half of what she owes me; that I stormed in one night and insisted she move out on Nov. 1 "no matter if she has to live on the street"; some shit about me and Otis Wheeler to a mutual friend, causing a fight between both me and Otis and me and friend; that I steal her stuff; etc etc it's too much to list). She has also said, and I quote, that the "only reason anyone likes [me] is because [I'm] thin and pretty and [she's] heavy, because [I] have no personality". I found this out thru a couple of mutual friends who were like, look, is this shit true because it's totally out of your character. But to my face she's still really nice to the point where I feel BAD being such a bitch to her, despite the fact that she owes me big time cash, is a terrible roommate, and apparently does nothing but lie about me behind my back to mutual friends. And it makes it doubly worse that I did just sort out things with other person, because now I feel hypocritical for forgiving him and not her, even thouh it's just very clear that she's terribly jealous of me and thinks by becoming the situation martyr and making me out to be a psycho bitch our friends (who she's ALWAYS been afraid liked me better) will like her more.

Argh, sorry, I just need to vent. The funny thing is I sorted out the OTHER situation by talking over the roommate thing with person at a restaurant last night. "So what you're saying is that you DON'T think I'm overreacting to be pissed off about someone telling complete lies about me behind my back to front to their friends. Huh..." ;)

I mean, individually, the lies are pretty small things and this is just a big huge build up of them since about June that has brought me to my breaking point. I really honestly think it's purely because of Ramon because I don't spend a lot of time with her now and she's the sort of friend who kind of is an attention hog, ie if you can't devote every second she wants you to to her, then she gets pissy about it. Which is dealable, but it would've been more dealable if she was just honest about it and talked it over with me instead of doing this. Now I just want her out, she's been a very bad roommate in all technical terms (not paying consistently, not replacing food/bathroom stuff/light bulbs/TAMPONS!!!, not cleaning up after herself a lot of the time, "borrowing" my stuff without asking a lot, running up the phone bill badly), and I excused it for a long time under the guise that she was a good friend, but how good of a friend would say this stuff about you? And when I started thinking about it, I realized that she's done it to a certain extent to other people, telling me extrodinarily weird things about a couple friends (including Ramon) that turned out to be not at all true, and again I think it was so that I would get mad at the person and then they'd be better friends with her than with me.

See, I totally understand her reasoning behind it and it's not like she's insane and actually BELIEVES that, for example, she pays both shares of the rent every month, when she's clearly given me 4 checks, one of which was for half of her share (ie a 4th). But I don't like to be made to look stupid to people, and I value trust very highly cos it's very difficult for me to trust people, and this is trust- destroying.

Hopefully this doesn't make me a hypocrite. I mean in my eyes I'm venting things that are true, not talking smack, but if anyone thinks my big long ramble rant is hypocritical please tell me and I'll apologize to everyone.

I think the only way out of this, unfortunately, is to confront her and let her know what the situation is. With a good friend and roomate, it really would only drag matters out and make things worse to ignore it.

Ally, I don't think she is your friend. I think she is emotionally (and financially) abusing. She seems very good at it too because she is even making you feel guilty you and making you question your own genuine feelings about things.

It does sound like she has a few problems of her own; the emotional abuse, manipulation and dishonesty she is dealing out is probably her way of functioning in the world. I doubt if it is pre-meditated in so far as I don't think she sits in her room planning her next slanderous attack or how many tampons she's going to "borrow" this month.

It seems that she is making you feel stress, guilt and unhappiness and that she is adversely affecting your relationships with your other friends, and maybe your relationship with your fiance. I think you need to work out whether the shit she brings into your life is worse than the guilt you would feel if you cast her out of your life.

It sounds like she is living her own reality. Probably she really believes what she says, and for her it is true. I doubt if confronting her will help. It is very difficult to make people believe your truth rather than their own, even if yours is the one that is based on reality.

Toraneko roX0r. Her answer was far better than mine...

The problem is, she's NOT very good at it in terms of actually being good at being manipulative or sneaky or what have you - in fact, I've never seen someone with such transparent schemes, and she tells these things to our mutual friends who are BIG HUGE LOUDMOUTHS and bound to tell me, they are gossips. And they're ludicrious lies that no one actually ever overly believes, and when they do, they immediately believe me when I explain them. She's good at it in the sense that you immediately know it's a mental problem, and feel bad for getting pissed off over something that obviously requires help. I don't know if taking someone who needs help and tossing them out is the best thing to do. On the other hand, I don't want to end up in therapy myself...

On the other hand, I don't want to end up in therapy myself...

Which, to be frank, is key -- you don't want to end up suffering yourself. Though your situation and mine are much different, my having to vent and lay it on the line to my own deadbeat roommate, who is formally out of here at last in a few more days, was both extremely relieving in terms of getting pressure out on my end and a wake up call to him in realizing that he fucked up. Something similar might need to happen here...

Wow, this sounds like "Single White Female" (wasn't Bridget Fonda called "Ally" in that movie?). Ally, unless she has a way of responding to all your accusations here (I hope she doesn't, actually), I think you are being a hypocrite. It's one thing to ask for advice about dealing with two-faced fuckheads, but most of us have never even met your roommate so there's no reason for this to have gotten so specific. You two (and whoever else is involved) should deal with it yourselves. I've had similar problems before; if you don't confront each other now it will only get worse.

Hi Ally.:) Listen to me for a second. You are a good person inside and what I have gathered from your statement is theat the person who is trying to act like you looks up to you. It seems that she would have no self esteem on her own and needs a role model, so as she can feel good herself. If I were you I'd be flattered and take it with a grain of salt. You are you and God made you perfect.( Never forget it) Gale

I think there is plenty of reason to get specific, ie for someone to tell me it's not a big deal and that the things I listed are completely ludicrious things that no one cares about anyhow, and that it's not worth the confrontation, cos quite frankly I can't be bothered to go on and do it and cause even more tension for the next month or so.

psycho flatmates = dud. been there, done that. though yours sounds decidedly more freakish than my psycho ex-flatmate.