If A Country Invaded Your Country In Order To Destroy And Replace Your Government, Even If Your Government Was Run By A Brutal Dictator, Would You Fight Them?

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I would. And as far as I'm concerned Bush is as despicable as Hussein in a lot of ways. I think I'd still have to fight though. I wouldn't want to, but it would seem to be the right thing to do. And yes, I know, I'm the guy who started the thread just BEGGING for Canada to invade the U.S. and take it over. I'm on to other hypotheticals. I don't ever want anyone to ever be killed ever. EVER. In a perfect world. I am a pacifist. But if I was from Iraq I would fight the Americans. It's the principle of the thing. Not even a nationalism thing. Just a people-should-not-invade-other-countries-unless-they-themselves-have-been-attacked-by-that-country kinda thing. Sorry if there is already a thread on this.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 5 April 2004 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.libertes.org/chaplin/img/discoursFin@180x132.gif

― Dada, Monday, 5 April 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I watched Red Dawn WAY too many times as a kid, so yes. And I'd piss in the radiator too.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Monday, 5 April 2004 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

wooooooooooolverines!!!!!!!!

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 5 April 2004 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Damn right.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Monday, 5 April 2004 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

There is historical precedent for this-when Germany invaded Russia, people rallied behind Stalin even though he had put millions in gulags.

― Sengai, Monday, 5 April 2004 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Just on the way home I was imagining what would have happened if, last September, I'd followed a lead I was given by someone I know and investigated something. I decided not to, which is a shame, cos it could have been like a real adventure with guns and goons and government spies and shit.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Monday, 5 April 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Tell us more about this something!

― Maria D., Monday, 5 April 2004 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

C'mon NJ, tell us! You've got our interest peaked.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 5 April 2004 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

He's an asshole, but he's our asshole

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Monday, 5 April 2004 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Iraq is seriously going to shit, eh?

― Sym (shmuel), Monday, 5 April 2004 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

If I suspected/that the invaders were going to be even worse, yes.

If I figured they were going to be as bad or better, no. Canada can invade tomorrow and I'd be learning the anthem.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 5 April 2004 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe you would but that doesn't mean you should. I was against this war but now that we're there i don't think it would be fair to leave the place to be snatched up by Islamist wolves, nor should the Iraqi people want that either.

― D Aziz (esquire1983), Monday, 5 April 2004 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

But what if they do? If the people of Iraq want a fundamentalist govt. of some form, should we stop it?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Just keep in mind, whether it's Canada doing the invading or anyone else, the cities and towns in your country are being bombed and thousands of your fellow citizens are dying. Just to keep things in perspective for this hypothetical exercise. oh, and thousands of people you know are being jailed and put in prisons.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

okay, maybe not thousands of people that you KNOW, but thousands of people.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Bombing and widespread imprisonment would certainly push me into the "aw, fuck, they're gonna be even worse" category.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:18 (twenty-one years ago)

no, not necessarily.

― m., Monday, 5 April 2004 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

the mention of "red dawn" on this thread has made me deliriously happy

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I get this image of some mentor of Jess's saying "AVENGE ME!"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

that would be when the russians kill redd foxx

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Does it bug the hell out of you Yes answerers that the vast majority of Iraqis have answered No?

― Stuart (Stuart), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:55 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of yes answerers here would be in the no category, if it ever came to pass. Talking about what you'd do when the shit hits the fan is a lot different from what you'd really do.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 5 April 2004 23:56 (twenty-one years ago)

You got that right. I'd probably be under my bed.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Stuart, you took your time answering to this one. I sense worry.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Under your desire for the least amount of people to die, then Scott, you should side with the side that will cause it to end quickest and with the least amount of deaths.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

you realize of course that when the heretofore unseen comet hits in '07 this will be a moot point for all of us.

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

(I've said too much)

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I would probably go all red dawn unless it was the Netherlands doing the invading or insert other basically peaceable dope smoking country.

Canada qualifies.

If it was Luxembourg though I would be ready to kick ass.

― hector (hector), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

it would be easy with Luxembourg. While they were deeply entrenched in a battle over the border of Rhode Island and Connecticut, just send over the Maine Nat'l Guard and watch their country fall in 25 minutes.

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Sadr looks like an Iraqi Kevin Smith

― Sym (shmuel), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 05:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Demonizing the enemy is a common practice in wartime.

― J. Malcolm, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 06:46 (twenty-one years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39368000/jpg/_39368416_sadr_index.jpg

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 06:54 (twenty-one years ago)

To answer the question, I have said elsewhere that I have no homeland and no patriotic feelings. The closest I come in my fierce loyalty to the Mac OS. Putting myself in the other guy's shoes, I would have to ask:

If A Virus Invaded Your System In Order To Destroy Windows And Install A New OS, Even If Your Computer Was Controlled By Bill Gates, Would You Fight It?

I think the answer is, I would allow the two tyrannical operating systems to weaken each other as much as possible, then install UNIX (the UN).

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 07:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I was born to make you happy, Jess.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 07:08 (twenty-one years ago)

One of the problems with 'the American Empire' is that it offers nations in its sphere in influence (including the countries it invades) neither the right to be the same nor the right to be different. It does not offer Iraqis American citizenship (in contrast to the EC, which offers new members all the benefits of European citizenship) nor does it allow them to be Iraqi in the way Iraqis want.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 07:45 (twenty-one years ago)

To answer the question, I have said elsewhere that I have no homeland and no patriotic feelings. The closest I come in my fierce loyalty to the Mac OS (etc...)
Momus, that was so genuis and so weird.

― Speedy (Speedy Gonzalas), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 07:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I would greet them.

― Jay Kid (Jay K), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 08:01 (twenty-one years ago)

"welcome glorious liberators"

/shot rings out

/Jay slumps to floor

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 08:05 (twenty-one years ago)

i would kill them.

― bibbz, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I'd had too much coffee when I started this thread. I'm calmer now. In my own dumb way, I WAS trying to put myself in someone else's shoes and one of the things that makes that hard is that it's really easy to make red dawn jokes cuz the idea is so improbable in the U.S.(Which is one of the problems of course.) 9/11 aside, people would have a hard time imagining what a lot of the world goes through on a daily basis.And they don't want to imagine. And people here just take it as a given that this country has the right to decide other people's fates. Which is bizarre to me. You know what i always say: If yer gonna change history you better have a really really good reason to do so. And I'm not a big believer in the "you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette" school of international diplomacy. The whole thing makes me sick. sorry everyone.

The other thing that chills me is that I'm already noticing the growth of an Iraqi war mythos from the U.S. perspective. The Vietnam thing all over again. Tales of gritty U.S. soldiers in books and magazines trying to take hill #231 outside of Baghdad.Special nicknames for Iraqis and colorful anecdotes. This also makes me sick and it won't be long before we get the Iraq Apocalypse Now and poetic fiction about the hell that is war.(This actually started with the embedded reporters and the pentagon's scripting of the television war) Maybe we just go to war for the art.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Then you gotta think about those Iraqis who might have been genius artists if they ever had the chance to be artists instead of having to worry about dictators and the fire-breathing, oil-slugging imperialist army that depose them. One of those innocent bystanders might have been Iraqi's David Gordon Green if given a chance to make a movie.

― Maria D., Tuesday, 6 April 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

You really really liked that All The Real Girls movie didn't you? You've got David Gordon Green on the brain. Why don't you marry that movie if you love it so much? (I do love that mother/son clown in the hospital scene. i keep thinking about it.)

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 14:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Art? Lord, please! Gimme a couple generations at least before you start calling this crappy propaganda "art."

― A.E. Foster, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Try to say 'crappy propaganda' ten times fast.

If I could marry a movie it might very well be All the Real Girls.

― Maria D., Tuesday, 6 April 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, my first post on a very hot subject...
I'm Italian, Anglo-Americans invaded my country in 1943 and thank god they did it. It was incredibly painful, thousands of people died under the american bombs, but Mussolini was way worse. The Iraq case is of course different: personally i didn't like the Iraq war, I don't like the Bush administration, but honestly i'm not sure that ALL the Iraqis consider the americans as enemies and i think that that country situation is so tragically complicated and twisted that it would be a wrong move to leave Iraq now.
Finally, and these days probably this is not a very popular idea, but my answer to the question: "If the people of Iraq want a fundamentalist govt. of some form, should we stop it?" is yes.
Yes, if we believe that personal freedom for any individual is the most important thing; yes, if we believe in the necessary distinction between religion and political praxis; yes again, if we think that human rights are not object of ethic relativism.
I don't think no one of us would accept easily to live under a fundamentalist government.
ciao!
Marco

― Marco Damiani, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I was using the word art loosely. My point was that the Iraq thing is already turning into one of those wild and crazy american trips thru the groovy heart of darkness in journalism and elsewhere. i think i'm finally sick of it as much as i enjoy coppola and kubrik movies and tim o'brien as a writer and all that. maybe every country does that, i don't really know. we seem to revel in war by way of indictments of war. three kings was a groovy flick too, man. war is fucked, dude. etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. jesus, someone shut me up. moderator, please delete my hopeless naivete.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Thinking if this really happened, I would probably try and get out of the country anyway I can, or go into a much less populated area of the country where the country ceases to be seen as a whole and all that matters is my farm and the local town.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Tim O'Brien seems out of place there. Michael Herr or Gustav Hasford or some others, yeah, but O'Brien's Vietnamese-related fiction is much more personal (and not so Heart of Darkness or '60s) as the others.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Going After Cacciato is pretty trippy and heart of something-or-other. remember when they fall thru the tunnel like alice in wonderland?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 23:46 (twenty-one years ago)

If a hostile country actually invaded the United States, I would fight them even though I have serious issues with the current administration; I would fight because I respect the ideas that initially spawned the country, such as freedom of religion and speech, etc. Though I dislike the current administration, I like to believe that they can eventually be replaced, though as more and more states purchase Diebold electronic voting machines, I may be mistaken.

If this country was currently under the thumb of a brutal dictator, I probably wouldn't fight an invading force unless I was convinced they would be worse than the current regime. I'm fairly pragmatic and would quickly learn to live with the invaders if I judged them superior to my former government.

― webcrack (music=crack), Wednesday, 7 April 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, my first post on a very hot subject...

Marco! Pleasure to see you here, sir.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 April 2004 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i dont know what i would do if my country was invaded, but i am quite happy about seeing the "all the real girls" love on ilx.

thats all

― todd swiss (eliti), Wednesday, 7 April 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure what I'd do. But I'm sure this is true:
foreign invasion and occupation is inherently insulting.
It doesn't matter what their intentions are, or how nasty
the native government was; strange, babbling foreigners with
tanks and guns are easy to hate.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 9 April 2004 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, that's kinda what i was trying to envision when i was thinking about this. plus, you know, they are going around killing people in your town! even if it were my rotten uncle who was a hussein loyalist getting killed or thrown in jail he's still my uncle. that's how i would feel. i think.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 9 April 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

the other thing that chills me is that I'm already noticing the growth of an Iraqi war mythos from the U.S. perspective

i agree. though it makes me feel very guilty hating on the impulse because i work with lots of people who have spouses, family or friends in iraq. 4/5 of the marines in iraq are from the nearby marine base. it's pretty clear that the warm, fuzzy feelings from war kitsch are - for some people at least - a substitute for missing people. which isn't so much angry-making as it is just sad.

what really frightens me, personally, is the swaggering tone of our administration / military / news analysts. it's like these people learned public speaking by watching ESPN post-game analysis.

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 April 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

HI MARCO

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 9 April 2004 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't noticed any of this war kitsch. Where do you see it? (I never see the war mentioned in public or in the "media" at all, except in the headlines.)

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Friday, 9 April 2004 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

what really frightens me, personally, is the swaggering tone of our administration / military / news analysts. it's like these people learned public speaking
by watching ESPN post-game analysis.

Well yeah. This is a country of jocks.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 April 2004 18:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"I'm Italian, Anglo-Americans invaded my country in 1943 and thank god they did it. It was incredibly painful, thousands of people died under the american bombs, but Mussolini was way worse"

this is interesting, from what i've read many if not most japanese had a similar reaction after their country's defeat

there is a moment in an ozu film where during a sort of informal reunion of people from the same japanese army regiment, one of them says "it's a good thing we lost, huh?" and the others nod sympathetically (doesn't stop them from a sort of ineffectual nostalgia for their time in the army)

i like the way scott put this, even if it seems incendiary to some. trying to try one someone else's shoes is one of the most important moral acts, i think

i don't have an answer to the question myself, because i think part of trying on someone else's shoes is understand the full dimensions of the social and political context in which that person's understanding of his nation and his place in it was formed. i don't have that kind of knowledge about iraq

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i also take well scott's point about the grotesqueness of the whole "vietnam, a war for the american spirit"-style abstractions that movies like apocalypse now and platoon trade in, and his fear that the current conflict will be transformed soon into a similarly ahistorical narrative....

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:14 (twenty-one years ago)

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