Tony Martin

If he'd have picked up a piece of wood and lumped the burglar to death, or even used an LEGAL gun, I'd have more sympathy. The fact that he had an unlicensed, illegal pump-action shotgun which he used to shoot the intruders in the back makes me believe it's right to keep him in, although the reduction in sentence seems just about fair. Whilst he clearly had problems with burglaries in the past, and the police didn't really do much to help him protect his property, he shouldn't have had that gun.

I think reducing the charge to manslaughter is ridiculous. Manslaughter is accidental/unintended death, as I understand it, and shooting somebody in the back is not either. The question is - was the degree of force being used legitimate for self-defence? If so then he should not have been convicted in the first place. If not then it's murder, and any mitigating circumstances can be expressed in the sentencing.

As for using force to defend your property, I think it's appropriate to use non-lethal force.

Not sure you're right, Tom. There was no time for premeditation, and there WAS provocation, although it's not clear if violence was threatened by the intruders. I'm no expert, and I'm sure we'll get more informed opinions from some of the ILE lawyers!

Legal definition of Manslaughter :

MANSLAUGHTER - The unlawful killing of a human being without malice or premeditation, either express or implied; distinguished from murder, which requires malicious intent.

The distinctions between manslaughter and murder, consists in the following: In the former, though the act which occasions the death be unlawful, or likely to be attended with bodily mischief, yet the malice, either express or implied, which is the very essence of murder, is presumed to be wanting in manslaughter.

It also differs from murder in this, that there can be no accessaries before the fact, there having been no time for premeditation. Manslaugbter is voluntary, when it happens upon a sudden heat; or involuntary, when it takes place in the commission of some unlawful act.

The cases of manslaughter may be classed as follows those which take place in consequence of: 1. Provocation. 2. Mutual combat. 3. Resistance to public officers, etc. 4. Killing in the prosecution of an unlawful or wanton act. 5. Killing in the prosecution of a lawful act, improperly performed, or performed without lawful authority.

The provocation which reduces the killing from murder to manslaughter is an answer to the presumption of malice which the law raises in every case of homicide; it is therefore no answer when express malice is proved and to be available the provocation must have been reasonable and recent, for no words or slight provocation will be sufficient, and if the party has had time to cool, malice will be inferred.

In cases of mutual combat, it is generally manslaughter only when one of the parties is killed. When death ensues from duelling the rule is different, and such killing is murder.

According to the news report I heard, the reason it was commuted to mansalughter was that his paranoid personality disorder was ajudged to count as mitigating the offence. The judges were clear that his actions were not reasonable self-defence. It's just that he's a headcase so he couldn't be held wholly responsible for his actions.

Oops! I stand corrected! Manslaughter sounds right, in that case.

And I thought this thread was going to be about the Larry Sanders- lite character that Micheal Barrymore played, but no, that's BOB Martin.

It is a sad stae of affairs when people are not allowed to protect themselves and their own property from mindless thugs. Tony Martian should be freed. The scum bags who were terrorising this man were in the wrong. Tony Martian is just a man who was driven to an act (that he probably regrets) which has cost him to spend most of his life in prison. 'But For' these mindless thugs attempting to rob him of his own property, Tony Martin would not be in this situation.

DJ Martian should be freed. The scum bags who were terrorising this man were in the wrong. DJ Martian is just a man who was driven to an act (that he probably regrets) which has cost him to spend most of his income on CDs.

"Most of his life"???

Indeed "most of his life"??? Nick (of course) is right about why his conviction was changed to manslaughter. Effectively, in order to help their client, his lawyers demolished the political argument that had been built up around Martin: rather than claiming that shooting the burgular was what any rational person would do, they said he did it because he was and always has been a deeply damaged man.

This is of no use to the debate but I like the fact that Norwich fans sing (to the tune of We are Top of the League) "We shoot burglars, say we shoot burglars".

Did they steal that from London fans taking the piss, as with the whole "Tractor Boys" thing at Ipswich?

Dunno, sorry.