Whats Your Favorite Vegetable

Leave it out, Anthony. Not funny and not nice.

Wow. That wasn't very nice. Um.

I like eggplants and corn. Not together.

He's cleverer than you, Anthony ;)

Peas.

I like carrots.

Zucchini and squash. Cooked w/ pasta. Yummy. Also, broccoli, cold or hot. I need to go shopping.

im sorry , im a bit bitter this morning .
forgive me

So he said something not nice, how awful. We all do it. I have handicapped relations and I don't see him saying that as doing any harm to anyone or as a reason for anyone to be offended.

Corn on the cob incidentally.

Ronan nobody's saying "delete the post" or anything - it was Anthony who said yesterday that he thought if people found something offensive they should say on-board, and so people did. Anti-PC people make me laugh - 'nothing's offensive except saying you're offended' seems to be the motto here.

Baby carrots (that come peeled and washed) and tomatoes and, in packaged salad, the stuff that looks like it could be a weed

I got accused of being "humorless" yesterday for bitching about someone sending this disgusting "funny" post to the mailing list for one of my courses about beating the shit out of people who are arguing for peace in Afghanistan, because it will teach them "that when you get hit hard, the only sane thing to do is retaliate!".

I think it would be giving in not to say something when people are writing things that offend you.

now i'm offended. nothing is absolute, except that nothing is absolute.

I know he said that. It just irritates me alot when people get offended in what seems like an official capacity. I don't think anyone could really have been actually significantly offended by that, however since its "bad" with big inverted commas then somebody better just say they're offended. If noone said anything noone ends up feeling small and like a bad person completely unnecessarily. That's how I feel about it. Also Anthonys point was if someone is going to say something then they should say it publicly here and not via private email.

Anthony feel free to tell me to shut up if I'm dragging you into something you dont want to be involved in. It might be worth highlighting this annoys me personally in general.

So yes if you're genuinely annoyed by something go for it. But often it seems people just react rather than actually consider how annoyed they are by something.

I'm quite a fan of the humble potato, organic please, waxy over floury for most things even mash sometimes, floury for baked an potato bread products. leeks, parsnips, corgettes fried in olive oil with a little tumeric salt and pepper, grilled aubergines, brushed with olive oil (i don't care if they're fruid), swede mash with nutmeg. I've had some sensational brasicas lately, cabbages lettuces, cauliflour, brocoli (roll on sprouts), freshly poded peas, all manner or beans (black canelli, fava, borloti, di spagna, butter, how I miss my bean man down the market in Italy) the list goes on.

We get a wonderful weekly bag of organic veg from the local wholefood coop, bag day tomorrow, what will it bring?

(incidentally before I wrote this I was deep in feverish slumber, aroused by my housemate (ringing about what I wanted for dinner) from a dream set inwales involving my search for sour dough and a friends housemat of welsh origin and polish descent)

Potatoes + grease of some form = heaven. Buttery mash, crisps, roasties, chips, whatever. The Nigel Slater program devoted to potatoes got me almost as excited as the one about cheese.

I see nothing in Ally's or Tim's posts to indicate that their level of offense was unreasonable, or that it wasn't genuine. I know Tim well enough to know that he doesn't react to things just because he thinks he should, and I'm pretty sure Ally doesn't either.

I can't even articulate why it annoys me at this stage better than I tried to already. But when I say it annoys me I mean it really really annoys me. I just think its people taking an opportunity to look down on someone else from some high moral ground for a few seconds. I know on that Family Fortunes thread I felt really small, (whether justified is very debatable but thats another story). I don't think its necessary unless you particularly consider the person to be a racist, or to be prejudice against the handicapped or to be whatever the joke or comment implies.

Sorry, and I don't think that anyone thinks that of Anthony.

Oh, shut the fuck up already. I'm not in the mood today for this kind of bullshit. Anthony's done this sort of weird post before, off- handed vaguely offensive remarks and I thought that pointing out that it wasn't nice, particularly considering it's wrong anyhow even if you WANT to be offensive, would be better than letting it get out of bloody hand. Tom is right, anything is okay except for saying "You know, you shouldn't have said that".

And I'm sorry, but "I know someone who is mentally handicapped and wasn't bothered so you shouldn't be either" is hardly a good argument, Ronan.

I agree Ronan. I think people can overreact sometimes perhaps just b/c they have nothing better to say.

I love tomatoes by the way but I guess they're really fruit. um, asparagus?

Peas still rule.

Samantha - the point is that Ronan seems to think (and pretty much admits he does, so this isn't a slam) that *any* response to a comment is an overreaction. Cos if saying "Um. That wasn't very nice." is overreacting I can't really see what wouldn't be.

(This continuing of the thread, though, may well be, but we're not talking about Anthony's comment any more anyway).

Well firstly you've completely misquoted me there.

Secondly yeah if you've got something to say say it. But what is the point of saying you were offended by something if you know the person well enough to know they arent prejudiced then dont bother pointing it out. The real issue is where you say you've been offended by Anthonys posts before, so fucking say that in the first place.

The truth is you either believe the person has malicious intent or you trust them based on your previous knowledge of them. If your previous knowledge of them leads you to believe they might have malicious intent then fine, call them on what they said, but give it some fucking context. Don't make it a veiled dig at someone. Because that's how it feels. Particularly in a case where it's not an overtly prejudiced remark, it's a nice kick in the teeth to know people are that unwilling to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry if you've had a bad day, but don't feel the need to "take this bullshit" on my account.

Sorry I dont think I said any response to a comment is over-reacting. But in the context of this board, I think a falsely measured response as I have discussed above is not worth posting. And to re-iterate if you don't actually believe the person to have malicious intent what is the point in reacting?

No, because if I thought somebody was a racist then I would say "I think you are a racist". Basically saying "I'm offended by this" is just informational - if someone feels small when they're called on something then either a) they know they were wrong or b) they can't take the reaction so shouldn't have made the joke. It's their problem not the person who's been offended.

I don't see many veiled digs here, Ronan. I don't see how saying not funny and not nice in response to a comment is in any way veiling any sort of dig.

I think saying "not funny" and "not nice" is not really saying much therefore overreacting in my book.

Of course Anthony's comment was insensitive, it was meant to be. We all realize that. Anthony realizes that. Why the need to point it out?

It's like if a friend had bad breath. You might mention it to them but you wouldn't wait until you were sure they'd been eating that stuff specifically to breathe on you.

Basically, either Anthony didnt know it would be offensive, in which case it's fine to point it out. Or he did know it would be offensive, in which case that to me counts as malicious intent, in a very minor sense but one entirely deserving of the very minor reaction it got.

But my point is you shouldn't be offended by it if you know the person at all. You *know* they have no malicious intent. So what's offensive about what they've said? Yeah so they slipped up, but if you genuinely believe them to be a decent and not a prejudiced person then why not give them the benefit of the doubt. And ok if veiled digs is too strong a term and it's such an insignificant statement like "thats not nice" etc then whats the point in saying it. I'm banging my head against a wall here, so it seems. What's the point in telling someone you're offended by what they've said, if you're not calling their character into question, if you already know they are not prejudiced, which seems to be the case here I think.

So what you're saying Samantha is that if someone finds an insensitive comment offensive they should just keep their mouth shut? Why on earth?

It's not like a friend having bad breath, . If your friend has bad breath, he has bad breath, there are no two ways about it. No matter how much you like him, if he's got bad breath you can't say I trust his judgement he doesnt have bad breath. If he says something potentially offensive then it's different, you know him and you know if he's prejudice so it's not offensive. It's not a case of waiting to find out if he specifically meant it. It's a case of trusting the person. yeah so whoops, he said something he maybe shouldnt, but theres no need to point it out. As i've said.

It can still be offensive even if you know the person does intend offence.

...does not intend...

Yes but if you know a person you know they dont intend offence dont you? Or do you?

what about people who aren't familiar with their other posts (this is a *public* forum, on the *public* internet), and think that IL* is full of offensive posters, offensive subjects etc

Well if they bother to read more than the one "offensive" comment every few weeks they'd know it wasnt.

The bad breath analogy is there to point out what Ricky says - some things are offensive to some people whether meant or not.

I also resent your posting on the Politically Correct thread Tom. If you want to call me a Bill Hicks or Lenny Bruce wannabe then you might aswell do it on this thread.

You know, it's my view that *everyone* should be careful about using language which tends to dehumanise other groups of people. If that makes me a bore, I don't care. In this 'self-regulating community' it's surely the right thing to call someone if they've said something they disagree with.

Ronan, if "we all do it" then perhaps "we" should be more careful. If you don't agree, if you think the offhand causing of offence is a good thing, then please make that case.

Yes yes, it's political correctness gone mad, etc.

What RickyT (eventually) said. Do nigger jokes suddenly become less offensive if I tell them just because I'm black? Nope.

Having said that, I wasn't particularly offended by what Anthony said, but I understand why someone would say it wasn't nice or the it wasn't funny. I think you're fighting the wrong battle here, Ronan.

No, because I don't think that's what you're doing here. I almost did actually and then I thought no, but it worked as a description of a general type so I used it on the other thread. There is a type of person - and it fits with the kind of clever lad-mag mentality you get at Universities, in my experience - who don't like people taking offense cause it's a bit boring and square and spoiling of their edgy fun. (I know cause I used to be a bit like that). I've not seen much to suggest you're like that, though there are posters here it might sometimes apply to.

Yes but in that case you're saying you take what someone says totally out of context of your relationship with them. My point is you know people here well enough to step back from what is usually a one off comment. Or I would have imagined so anyway.

And Tim that "we" in inverted commas is possibly the most self righteous thing I've seen on ILE. Just so you know.

it was meant as a one of , sick joke that i posted w/o much thought. i really didnt expect such debate.

it's wrong to use words like 'vegetable', whether in a throw-away statement or not, and offensive to other users of the boards and the internet as a whole. who knows whether any readers are in a wheelchair? i think the original post was wrong, and it's quite right to call someone out on that. the complaint is only referring to that particular posting anyway.

I'll take that as a compliment from a master.

Ronan, your argument is as I understand it: I know Anthony and know that he doesnt 'mean it' so I shouldn't say anything even if I'm offended. Because if I do then Anthony will feel bad. But surely by your own logic if I do then because Anthony knows me he knows I don't think any long-term less of him. The community context is what allows you to say something is out of order without consequences (usually).

How does he know you don't think any long term less of him?

That's different to you knowing he is not prejudiced.

As for you Tim, I hope you're happy safe in the knowledge you've never said anything offensive in your life.

Because the argument pivots on the assumption that we know each other well enough to understand how each other acts and reacts.

I think your argument is wrong anyway and that you should say if you are offended by something, so this is kind of a side issue.

Hang on, listen I decided as this was becoming more heated I don't want to make any long term enemies here based on something we're disagreeing on. Yes I am pissed off at you Tim but I apologise for what I just said there, it wasnt on really. So I'm sorry.

I have more to say but I think its best if I don't.

"if you know a person you know they dont intend offence"

Not necessarily: "knowing" someone is a process, which expands thru difft situations. I can't see the distinction between what Tim did (= object to a post) and Ronan did (= object to a post).

Some people genuinely appreciate it when it's pointed out that (someone else considers) they're being thoughtless: possibly because thoughtless is exactly what they WERE being, and actually they WOULD LIKE TO KNOW if people are offended. Also if everyone just goes "oh that's [x] being [x] again" all the time, it's actually a bit demeaning to [x], isn't it? It means they're never taken seriously.

But it's worse if people pull you up for something based on "oh thats x being racist again".

Everyone's entitled to say whatever they want. That said, people are entitled to think of them whatever they want. I think people who find it necessary to point out something *obviously* tastelss when there is no real malicious intent are boring nitpickers. So there.

Anthony's comment didn't necessitate comment back was my point. If a friend makes a dumb middle-school type joke it's kind of a waste of breath to point out that they have just made a dumb middle-school type of joke. And for people who find themselves offended often and easily, lighten up.

Ha ha - I had ignored this thread and I just gave in and flipped to the bottom and whaddayouknow no one's talking about vegetables and everyone's fighting about political correctness!

Thank goodness Mark's back.

What Tim did = object to a post.

What Ronan did = objecting to a post objecting to a post.

Tim may be right or wrong. Ronan may also be right or wrong but there is an inconsistency within his action, surely?

not sure if it IS worse: in the first case, nothing's being done or said, and [x] is just being ignored and overlooked, so has no context in which to think abt what s/he is saying; in the second, a discussion can ensue

(if you mean thoughtlessly or kneejerkily being pulled up, well, yes, lack of thought is a bad thing either way: thoughtlessly or kneejerkily indulged is poor too)

Oh, I see. They have been from the beginning. I'm just wondering why anthony wrote that in the first place. Feeling 'bitter' about Stephen Hawking, you mean? If it was a more general bitterness I don't understand why this would lead to you implying that Stephen Hawking was a vegetable (which, as I understood it, is a slang term for brain dead people, which he famously isn't). I'm genuinely confused.

i like brussel sprouts with lots of salt and butter

Theres a real "maybe now the child will see" attitude coming through here. Like "thank goodness Marks back" *he'll* show Ronan he's wrong.

Yeah so maybe its slightly inconsistent, but theres a difference between putting yourself on the record as offended and objecting to a comment. Somebody accused of being offensive is facing a more personal attack than someone who is disagreed with, an entirely different concept. Accused may be too strong a word I accept, in this case. Admittedly *by* disagreeing with someone things can become *more* personal but not quite to the same extent. So I accept I was being a little bit inconsistent.

Ooops, sorry Ronan, "Thank goodness Mark's back" referred to a beneficial effect for the whole board and also cause I was a bit worried he might not.

You're all babes in my eyes

samantha: so if i made a sexist, racist, etc joke, then anyone who's offended by it should just sit quietly and be offended in silence? and the internet will be slightly more full of offensive material, these boards will gradually become a less pleasant place to visit etc etc.

Tom it didnt look like that in the context of this thread. Also the fact you said it after he made a point and proceeded to back up said point influenced me to say what I just said. I'm wrong then obviously, sorry, and yes it is good that Mark is back.

As for m jemmesons comment, well it depends how easily you're offended doesnt it? Lots of people would say half of what we discuss on ILE is offensive.

Yeah sorry Ronan it does read like that but it wasn't intended. I was disagreeing with him not backing him up, though!

I need dinner. I feel better for having had this argument, but feel worse for possible repercussions.

Samantha, obviously I disagree with you about whether Anthony's initial comments deserved a response, because I responded. If those kinds of comments go on without comment then eventually they become acceptable. Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive today because this is not the first thread with out-of-order material touching on disability. I don't like it. Apparently you think it's all in good fun. Fair enough.

m. I think the comments made earlier about knowing people here apply. If I knew you weren't racist, sexist, etc. and you made a tasteless joke what's the point of calling you on it? I know that you know you were being tasteless.

I suppose not everyone has that level of comfort with regular posters here but still. . . It's not like Anthony stated the holocaust was a hoax.

it's the 'throwaway'ness of the comment i think which is troublesome - of course everyone is familiar with regular posters, but it's a throwaway comment that can be made because as far as people know, there is no-one disabled who reads these boards. would a similar throwaway racist, sexist or homophobic comment be tolerated?

Ronan - yes, a lot of IL* is 'offensive', but usually in the sense of not suitable for kids/showing on TV etc - e.g. threads on sex and so on, not offensive terms for sections of the population

Can I mention broccoli and "greens", or should I start a different thread?

I like Greens too. I think an easy way to settle this debate is to ask "Do you think SouthPark is funny?"

search: peas, potatoes, sweetcorn, parsnips, broccoli, carrots, runner beans, broadbeans, the vege-fruit types (tomato, cucumber, courgette?)

destroy: cauliflower

i find SouthPark reasonably amusing, yet find a throwaway 'vegetables' commend on a public forum offensive. maybe i'm a hypocrite

Samantha - I disagree. Sorry. Cartman's rants are just not the same as what anthony said. Reasons of context, distance etc. I'm too tired to articulate. I know that sounds like a cop out, but all I'm saying is your acid test doesn't work with me anyway.

Well Nick, on another day then, please illuminate. I think it just speaks to sense of humor and able to discern between true idoicy and ultimately harmless joking.

As I don't know Anthony at all, the way I saw his comment was as a misguided attempt to be edgily funny. Something I do all the time, but can't tell whether I'm going to sound hilarious, idiotic, weird or offensive until (inevitably) after I've said it.

More than anything, it seemed to be a possibly too candid expression of the racist, homophobic, sexist, blahblahblahist subconscious that every single one of us has in different ways and to different degrees. Maybe I'm just a paranoid misanthrope, but to myself (and certain close friends) I've said things that in an ILE kind of context would be shocking and inexcusable. Maybe the fact that I *wouldn't* say them in this kind of context is the only thing that makes me different from Anthony.

It was a fairly crappy but unextraordinary comment. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I agree with Mr. Casarotto (something which will likely cause him to lose more sleep than anything else on this thread). Context is all, and posting here is about the most public thing I do in my life. This is not a nice comfortable private space.

Cartman is 8 and fictional (and the humour arises from the fact that this is what kids do do). Anthony is in his 30s and real. But I don't find South Park funny - not cause it's offensive exactly but cause too many of the jokes are based on it thinking it is.

I wasn't offended by Anthony's comment either, I thought it was a bit crass so I made a joke back. Then I decided to pick a fight with Ronan because the "don't ever be offended" attitude annoys me just like people being offended annoys him. Sorry it's dragged on so long.

So a nun, a priest and a rabbi walk into a bar...

Greens, steamed and sometimes stirfried in a little sesame oil: Rappini, bok choy, and what's known as "Chinese Broccoli" or just "Chinese Greens". mmmm.

I'm making a slow-simmered cream of mushroom soup tonight. with lots of sherry in it, like Julia Child likes. I think I'm just going to stick to boring old button mushrooms this time, cause last time I put in some portobello and it was a little overpowering. Would have been fine in a stew setting, but in a cream soup, you want a little more subtlety from the mushrooms.

i am NOT in my 30s . Mark came closeset , the problem is that you can not tell my inflection on the interweeb

ronan isn't saying it very well but he's right.

I R not contributing to this, it R not highbrow enough for ILE.

Tom, I don't buy your argument. Are you saying Anthony's comment would've been less tasteless had he delivered it in the guise of a childish cartoon character? Besides, the people who write cartman are real men in their thirties.

I like vinegar with my greens. and some hot sauce.

I'm saying the analogy doesn't work. Something said by a fictional character can't be equated to something said by a real person. I wasn't offended by Anthony's comment anyway so I dont know how it might be less or more offensive than South Park.

Ethan - you call people on things that offend you, so I'm interested by your opinion here.

My Very favorite is squash. Gale

Yes I realise I wasnt saying it particularly well, but I felt like I was hacking through on my own for a good hour or so there which made it a bit harder. I don't see the distinction between Cartman saying something and this either. Still waiting to hear something convincing for that argument.

And for what it's worth -- fresh carrots, fresh roasted corn on the cob with a touch of butter, and celery, not to mention eight million things I could suggest from Vietnamese cuisine. :-)

You don't consider fiction and reality enough of a distinction Ronan?

Actually, no, forget it. I'm feeling exactly the same frustration Ronan is, from the other direction: I think what I'm saying is absolutely obvious and reasonable and feel the same banging-head- against-wall infuriation with the arguments coming from the other side. So I'm not touching the issue again tonight, at least before I get too irritated.

Sorry I got your age wrong Anthony! I thought you were 31 for some reason!

So anything in fiction is acceptable? I think so but then I'm pretty liberal about reality too. South Park the show is a reality. Someones writing the stuff thats in it. It's being said without any source of responsibility.

Anthony should have offered "Ronald Reagan" as an option instead- then maybe this thread wouldn't be so long.

Asparagus.

At least an eggplant never appeared on a Pink Floyd album.

And Hawking did?

Oh...

I skipped this thread because I thought it was about vegetables and therefore dull. Ah, ILE.

this is all abou tmy small fick, isn't it?

God, I never realised that: 1.South Park was real. 2.Hopkins was inoffensive

You all listen to me, South Park is inoffensive because they offend everyone. Think about it.

I am rather gutted that no-one said cabbage

THE CARROT HAS MYSTERY.

I did

Thanks Ed, sorry I missed it in amongst the politically correct bit.

I was deeply offended because it seemed to me that anthony was saying he likes to boil up famous physicists in a pot and eat them. My grandfather, the inventor of several laws involving black holes suffered a similar fate in the 1920s.

My favourite vegetables are chillies, most of all with aubergine and potato, made into a nice curry at an Iranian restaurant on green lanes.

You wait till he kicks your ass, cause he can rap you know. Here I think.