'Linguistic Colonialism' (Blunkett again)

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Plans to make all immigrants learn English as stated by Blunkett - reasonable, or 'linguistic colonialism' as claimed by detractors?

dave q, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Western ideal of beauty? Or radical inclusiveness?

dave q, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

well, if i was going to go live in a foreign country i would try to learn at least enough of the language to get by as that makes SENSE. and i'd do it on my own too, for the thrill of learning, as i've found that most natives treat attempts to communicate with respect, good humour and an urge to correct the bits you get wrong. but maybe forcing everyone to sit down and take a test is a bit harsh... what about providing people with phrase books? and making facilities for english learning available but not compulsary? cos there's no two ways about it, if you speak the language you're going to get on better in making a new life for yourself.

katie, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But the question is, why NOT make it compulsory?

dave q, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

's linguistic colonialism, innit?

katie, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm training to teach English abroad at the moment. I think that they should make learning English available to everyone coming through the borders. In my experience, many people are desperate to learn English, and I think this is only going to be more applicable to asylum seekers.
But to make it compulsory is surely going to be really difficult to enforce? How would they assess each individual's development? More tests, more bureaucracy, more money from the tax payer. It would also be difficult to enforce legally.
But English Learning facilities should definitely be made available, for everybody's benefit.

Will, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

it all depends on teh execution i suppose (ooer). i don't have a problem with this, because i had to learn to speak english too. which is a real bonus now i is growed. also like any bloody liberal i'm wary of cultural divides leading to social exclusion, ignorance, fear then hatred.

)I do think this is stretching the definition of colonialism too far -- not that there is a good stable definition of it, but it usually involves political control between states. once you get the word colonialism out of there you have to find some other emotive word to make it sound really bad. fascism, say?

Alan Trewartha, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

well of course i was only being facetioius when i said 's linguistic colomialism. in the end it's entirely up to the individual whether they want to learn English or not - like whether its entirely up to a skoolkid if they want to bunk and play about, or freakin learn something. i agree with Will - the facilities should be there for those who want them, but yr actual enforcement's another matter altogether.

katie, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i could tell you were katie, don't worry :-)

Alan Trewartha, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what was yr having-to-learn-english situation before you were growed then Alan?

katie, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

When I went to France I saw tonnes of American foreigners speaking in crazy, incomprehensible Yankcents not bothering to learn any foreign lang00ga. I think that forcing people to speak English = manowar. Big thumbs dizzown.

Kodanshi, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

there was this nasty woman with flash cards and we all had to sit around saying "cat" and "door" and stuff. *shame* yes the facetiousness was there, sorry.

Alan Trewartha, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

wouldn't linguistic colonialism be going *into* another country and forcing them to swop their language for yours? In this particular case, if someone actively and voluntarily decides to come and live in your country, it makes sense that they learn the language.

yes, it sounds terrible to say that they must be *forced* to do so, but if you come to another country, you can't depend on their social welfare system, you must get a job, for which the English language is required. you need to be able to pay your own way, not be a burden to your host country and surely its the host government's prerogative to give you the means to do so.

there are places in new york, like hispanic areas, where people don't speak english - or at the very least, pretend not to. but surely, to be able to speak the native tongue will ease the culture shock of life in an alien country, without necessarily having to sever your ties with your own identity.

nickie, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

more generally on asylum seekers, i think that EU rule where people have to seek asylum in the first EU country they reach is ridiculous. firstly, how would an asylum seeker actually know this, and secondly, isn't it reasonable for someone to want to go to a country where their friends and family may be and where they may speak the language? if i spoke English as a second language, i wouldn't want to stay in France, and have to learn a third language

m jemmeson, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hey Alan - all that flashcard business is called 'choral drilling' - and we get told to do that as often as possible during our training. I'm not happy about it personally, but it is quite effective...

Will, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that encouraging immigrants to learn English is a great idea - I think that some sort of mentor programme would be great where you could sign up to be a mentor for an immigrant person/family and help them to learn stuff about living in your country and about language.

In the olden days here (1950's) all the immigrant used to be put in these big camps and they weren't allowed out until they could pass an English test and then they would be sent to work building dams or railways.

I know some families where the mother has never learnt English, the father has through work and the kids through school but once the kids leave home the mums get really depressed because they are lonely and they don't have enough English skills to go out and do things by themselves. I know a couple of Russian Jewish families who came here in the last ten years where the women in particular have found adjusting to Australia really difficult. The kids go to school and the men become taxi drivers because none of the qualifications are recognised here but there's nothing for the women to do and because they are were qualified and were usually well off back in Russia, they are desperately unhappy living with no money or anything. Their communities are fairly strong here but it is more the men who are involved and I think this has a lot to do with the fact that the men work. I think that being unemployed, especially if you have worked in the past, is one of the most desperately unhappy situations to be in. It just sucks your life-force out of you.

toraneko, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

english = native tongue of england (except cornwall), but not eg wales
english = NOT native tongue of USA or Australia

If UK is going to institute citizenship tests, then it should have a written constitution: otherwise it becomes the following:

Blunkett: "As long as you don't break the rules, you are a citizen"
Eager applicant: "But how will I know when I am breaking the rules?"
B: "You'll know when you've broken them cuz you'll be riding out of town on a rail…"
EA: ?!?!

mark s, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

English = not native tongue of England.

English = combination of French, Latin, Greek, Germanic, and some other languages plus a bit of whatever they spoke there before that.

Anyway, I've met people from Yorkshire and Manchester and I definitly speak better English than them, albeit with an ocker accent.

toraneko, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Anyway, I've met people from Yorkshire and Manchester and I definitly speak better English than them, albeit with an ocker accent.

Oh dear toraneko, you were doing so well..

Nick, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"HWÆT WE GARDE na in geardagum ¶eodcyninga…"

Native tongue everywhere = microsoft spellcheck

mark s, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Are you picking me up for my spelling mistake or for my insulting comment?

They probably speak wonderful English, I just can't understand much of what they say due to their fantastic accents.

toraneko, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That and all the nowts and owts they use.

toraneko, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

which english?

Geoff, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I R thinking my previous thread is fully justified.

I R Fatnick, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

We do speak wonderful English, enhanced by our fantastic accents. Some of our mothers also ban 'owt' and 'nowt' as common and vulgar, for which some of us are grateful in later life, but not as grateful as we are for our nice flat vowels.

Ellie (from Leeds), Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ellie, did your Mum ban you from saying ay-up as well? I used to get a clout round the back of the head for that one! Funnily enough it didn't work on my sister who speaks the broadest North Derbyshire I've ever heard.

chris, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Chris: I don't think we even went _near_ ay-up. My sister manages to talk the broadest Yorkshire possible without ever using 'owt' or 'nowt', so I guess my mother feels vindicated.

Ellie, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I live in Yorkshire - 'Uddersfield, in fact - and you can foock off with all that non-English business.

Kodanshi, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I just wish they could make sure immigrants could speak one or the other of our languages to some degree. I had to work in 'Asiancourt' in Toronto for a summer and it wasnt fun.

Mr Noodles, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh bloody marvellous. I miss the only thread I could join in with and actually have something to say. Perhaps Blunkett would like to stop having to print official documents in lots of languages. Maybe the ink budget is small. Or perhaps he wants Britain to be more unified. Blah blah blah, nation state, Einar Haugen..etc.etc.It was in a book. I would expect to have to learn the language if I went and lived abroad. However, if there wasn't any provision for me to learn it, it would only seem fair for the government there to provide documents in my language, if they wanted me to pay them any mind. Do you want everybody to speak the same? Would it work? It obviously hasn't. Should anyone try to change this? Is this too big a topic for me to warble on about? I'll stop. Surely learning English English in England is a useful thing to immigrants. Toraneko, I suggest you get some literature on English dialects and the Standard English debate.

alix, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So, you Brits have your "English Only" (ahem, "English First") brigade too, hey? So much for that Yankee notion that y'all are more sensible than we are :-p

Of course immigrants should learn the language of the country to which they immigrate, if only for their own benefit (i.e., so they know how to buy things). But mandating that they learn English? That's another thing altogether. I merely note, with irony, how the ones over here who scream loudest for "English First" (namely, certain Republicans) also claim to want to "get government off the backs of the people," yet if making people learn English doesn't fly against such libertarian rhetoric then I don't know what does.

Over here, "English First" is pretty much code for "let's stick it to the Spics." That sort of thing has died down a bit since we now have someone in the White House who is a fluent Spanish-speaker (more irony -- one of the funniest things this past year was watching the Texas Chimp go to Spain and mangle the Spanish language, but lying and mangling language are both second-nature to the Bush Clan). I also note, with yet more irony, how some of the loudest "English First" boosters are themselves children of immigrants whose parents or grandparents, quite possibly, lived in ethnic enclaves where English was certainly not the everyday language.

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)


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