Everything Is Wrong, uncomfortable in my own skin

In fact, I seriously entertained the notion of dropping out of society entirely while we all sat around and watched cover bands at the Red Lion. I was trying to figure out if there was any sort of commune or something I would be comfortable in. I decided there probably wasn't. Then, I entertained the idea of moving back to my home town, getting an inconspicuous know-nothing kind of a job and living in a shack in the woods until I die an old curmudgeon completely misunderstood by all who knew me (as I wouldn't bother to speak much). Then, I realized that the enneagram test was probably pretty accurate and, despite my optimistic attitude toward life, the reality of it all is making me a pretty unhealthy number 5.

Isolation from society sounds like just what the doctor ordered. I bet if you didn't visit this board fro a month you would be quite happy to return to it.

But, it'll pass. Always does, right? Odd feeling though. I was thinking about something I read. You know how people generally believe "I think therefore I am" makes sense? Well, there is no "I", there are only randomly occuring thoughts that are mostly uncontrollable. Memories are thoughts appearing out of thin air that are being remembered. All thought is a string of memories, comparing old thoughts to new thoughts and creating even newer thoughts. But, if you try to identify your SELF, you're shit out of luck. There is no thought that is yourself except the sentence "I think therefore I am" which can only be internalized for one moment at a time. You can't kee this thought in your head. New thoughts will invade and take over. You can say that you are your body, but that's not really true, either. You control your body, your body houses your thoughts, but your body is not your thoughts and, while we assume thoughts are the result of chemical interactions in your brain, your thoughts are neither chemical reactions OR your brain. So what are you? There is no you. There are several million of you, each one is a thought. All the thoughts remember themselves individually and re-member themselves as a unit, which you collectively consider yourself. But, this self is not you, either, because with each new thought there is a new self. So, there's no "self" that's unchanging, that you could say, "yeah, that's me". You can decide that your groups of thoughts are you and that you are "a million different people from one day to the next, I can change, I can change..." because that's the only thing that's really true enough to say. You think therefore you are? You don't really control your thoughts. They control you. So, what are you? You're this collection of thoughts that's always trying to figure out what it is and why they're here. And, there's no answer. It's fucked, basically.

philosophy is a cop out, steer clear of it at all costs. The answer to all your problems is to lower your expectations

Expectations of what, though? I have none.

By the way, please do not let this depress those who were already depressed. There's been enough of that kind of talk on this board lately. Like I said, this feeling will pass. It's the way nature exists as coming and going; birth-death, happy-sad, moments die every second as soon as they begin. But, it is a weird sort of feeling to understand the way things are and to look around and to communicate with other people who are more interested in fighting with you about nonsense, rather than going with the flow. Everyone wants to go against the grain. It's all self-interest and lack of compassion/understanding for others. I'm not saying I EXPECT any different, so there's no lowering of expectations that needs to be done here. I'm just saying it makes me feel like K-PAX.

what went wrong with my HTML? dammit

the way things should be implied to me that they had somehow been raised, or you are being less charitable in you perceptions of how things are

Come to think of it, the selfish attitude is probably because of the very fact that thoughts take over, each one exists for a moment and wants to be fully realized before it disappears. It's the kind of thought that drives people like Einstein to figure shit out and the kind of thought that drives people like Hitler to wipe people out. For instance, the thought I'm having right now that I'd have to call the "Thinking About Thoughts" thought is doing everything it can to interfere with all other thoughts. It thinks it's important and it remembers older thoughts to latch onto as many points of reference as it can. The older thoughts are saying, "Oh yeah, remember me? Yeah, I'll join you in creating a new thought" thereby reinsuring its rebirth at some point in the future when the stream of consciousness remembers him again. It's like dropping bread crumbs to find your way back home again. The collective thoughts all figure out what thoughts relate to what prior thoughts and maps out their hierarchy of "self". So, right now, my thoughts are coming to the conclusion that "we are the thoughts that think about thoughts" and, uh oh, sounds like a vicious cycle coming on. The thinker-thought of thoughts is highlighting himself and putting a gold star next to his title. But soon he will lose out to the Obliterator Of Thoughts thought, who pisses himself with booze.

you are being terribly interesting but if you want to be calmed and serene go read the tao te ching.

It's not that I think it SHOULD be this way, necessarily. It just gets tiring sometimes to pull yourself back to the same spot again to entertain the concerns of others whose lives seem to revolve around sports, music and feeling superior (for reasons unknown even to themselves).

Really? I was pretty sure I was being terribly boring, as most people would look at me like I was a stupid fuck and say, "You talk to much. Have a beer. Get laid. Shut up."

"too much" for spell checkers

Well, anyway, this seems to have done the trick. I feel better now that I've put it into words. Thanks for responding. I'll check out that book you mentioned. I'm all for that eastern philosophy stuff. I was in the bookstore the other day eyeing a few books by the Dalai Lama and thinking, "ah, I don't know about him..." For some reason, he seems almost like a commercial guru to me. Don't know why, but I get the feeling his books are filled with the kind of practical wisdom that inspires millions to do absolutely nothing.

i thought about along time about moving to my hometown to fuck off and write , i am not sure why i havent

ooooh, I'm reading an online translation of Tao Teh Ching. So far, it's all stuff I'm familiar with already. I'm a big fan of buddhism. It's all very strange, though. In order to "recharge", you need to reread this stuff to refocus on how you want to perceive things. But, I don't think buddhists are the most social critters (not that they're antisocial). In fact, I doubt they have much to say to people they don't share common interests in. That's my problem, too. Anything you would say to deflect a negative spin on conversation is going to come off like pompous holier-than-thou guy. Either you just don't speak and let nature take its course or you open your mouth and blurt out an overly analytical explanation of why you're not interested in pursuing the conversation. All in all, a pretty good reason to take a vow of silence and spend all your time in the remote hills of Tibet.

maybe people are more than just a collection of ever changing thoughts- after all thats a pretty tenuous idea of identity. where does that leave responsibility for ones actions, and the general individuality we assert by making statements about ourselves. There hs to be an I that can recognise and coallate the thoughts and attribute them to itself and not someone else.

descartes idea of 'I think therefore I am' gets no-one anywhere, except to establish oneself as a thinking thing. Stop thinking and you're history. In order to get anywhere he wheeled out the concept of god and hey presto philosophers were back in the garden of eden again.

What the hell am I talking about? sorry I am not being interesting but I just had to moan about Descartes

Yeah, maybe they are. If you can put your finger on it, let me know.

Nude Spock, have you read any J. Krishnamurti? He spent his life saying what you say above: a human being is essentially a collection of fragmented, conflicting thoughts - or memes in today's parlance. And you know what? He was spot on. But being without all those ideas, beliefs, images is rather too terrifying for most people.

I read some krishnamurti once, but I just don't seem very well equipped to deal with eastern philosophy. I find the idea of giving up conflict repugnant

It's good to acknowledge that. A lot of New Age types and Krishnamurti readers like to think they want to give up conflict which is usually nonsense. Everyone thrives off it and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

Krishnamurti was great though. Pretty tough going at times - especially some of his discussions with physicist, David Bohm. Absolutely mindblowing!

haven't read those. In fact its been a lng time since I read any, I tend to get irritated by the presuppositions- people having souls and all that, and can't get the hang of willing suspension of dispbelief.

so if I were to look up the subject more what would you recommend as a starting point?

Krishnamurti wasn't into souls or the suspension of disbelief at all: his approach was to question all the beliefs and assumptions our lives are built on. So there was no otherworldly stuff in his talks, nor any need to believe in anything he said. He was kind of like an Eastern Socrates really.

'The Impossible Question' is a pretty accessible book to start with.

Wow, thanks, Johnathan! I have never heard of this guy, but it sounds like something very much I've been waiting to read. I'll let you know what I think in a couple weeks, after I find and read the book.

I quite liked the idea of not accepting gurus, questioning beliefs is always good so where am I getting this acceptance of everything that happens idea from? I'll just have to read the book, thanks for the reference.

I get that feeling a lot. Then I start off with my The definition of Daylight is the light of day, 24 hours is a day, night is part of 24 hours, the moon gives off light, so the moon must be daylight, god the english language is fucked up thought. The only reality is that there is no reality, if you dweal on these things you will get muncho headache. Realize that NOTHING exists and sleep after that, today is the first day of the rest of your life. -Stephae Ardcaw