At what precise point did Woody Allen become crap?

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I could do without everything post-Manhattan. There have been moments since then, but I don't think he's made a really great film since.

― thing of thing, Friday, 4 June 2004 09:34 (twenty years ago) link

To be honest I prefer "Take the Money and Run" to "Manhattan"

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 09:37 (twenty years ago) link

Maybe I do too, I dunno, but Annie Hall and Manhattan are still good movies. The decline was gentle, but I don't think he made a really good movie after that.

― thing of thing, Friday, 4 June 2004 09:40 (twenty years ago) link

I like "Annie Hall"

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 09:41 (twenty years ago) link

Bullets Over Broadway is the cut-off. There was good stuff after that movie, but it became increasingly hit-or-miss.(Sometimes within the same film)

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 4 June 2004 09:47 (twenty years ago) link

...which was pre-Manhattan...

I don't think he became crap he was always pretty hit and miss. Great films post-Manhattan:

"Hannah and Her Sisters", "Crimes and Misdemeanors", "Manhattan Murder Mystery" and especially "Deconstructing Harry".

xpost

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 4 June 2004 09:53 (twenty years ago) link

"Bullets Over Broadway" is not pre-Manhattan! Actually, he has made some pretty good films after "Manhattan", I wouldn't particularly go to a cinema to see them and didn't, for the most part.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 09:56 (twenty years ago) link

Oh I see "Annie Hall" was pre-Manhattan!!!!!!!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 09:57 (twenty years ago) link

he was never as good as some say, and now he's not as bad as some say.

― zen master amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:00 (twenty years ago) link

Sweet And Lowdown is a lovely film too. Yes, hit and miss, but so what? When did Dickens get crap?

Agree probably with the previous statement

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:01 (twenty years ago) link

He resembles The Doors in that regard - xpost

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:02 (twenty years ago) link

I saw his latest, "Anything Else". It was abysmal. His attempts at 20something dialogue were cringemaking.

There may be no exact cutoff point, but it's hard to deny that at least in the last decade he's declined dramatically.

― thing of thing, Friday, 4 June 2004 10:04 (twenty years ago) link

yeah i liked Sweet and Lowdown (which i saw on a plane so i'm probably wrong) and disliked Bullets over Broadway, strangely. "Celebrity" is one of the wors films ever made.

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:21 (twenty years ago) link

am!st OTM

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:21 (twenty years ago) link

Well he makes a LOT of films, which could be one of his problems

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:22 (twenty years ago) link

Possibly when he started getting too old to play the romantic roles himself? Or more pertinently when Hollywood decided that in light of personal details, the public wouldn't want to see him seducing actresses 30 years his junior.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:29 (twenty years ago) link

The public never wanted to see him seducing actresses 30 years his junior - Woody Allen wanted to see that

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:30 (twenty years ago) link

The public didn't seem to mind Sean Connery doing it.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:32 (twenty years ago) link

Not to encourage an unfair stereotype, but his last film was really successful in France.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:32 (twenty years ago) link

Woody Allen must be about 70 now, I don't think there are many comic writers/directors who are at the top of their game at that age. The 70s = more hits than misses, the 80s = 50% hit 50% miss, the 90s = hits very few and far between, the noughties = please retire now, Woody.

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:37 (twenty years ago) link

I saw his latest, "Anything Else". It was abysmal. His attempts at 20something dialogue were cringemaking.

I dunno, I thought getting Him Out Of American Pie to play the role that *he* would usually have was an interesting move: a) putting forth the idea that his neuroses, the archetype that he's been playing for centuries, is something timeless and not particular to his generation or himself; b) freeing himself up to just become Crazy Old Guy, which he seemed to enjoy tremendously.

Not to say that it was a particuarly great movie, or anything.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 4 June 2004 10:39 (twenty years ago) link

Given his age, I don't think Woody Allen had any option but to let someone else play the "Woody Allen" role. The movie was long and poorly structured, there were maybe a couple of moments when I chuckled, many many more when I cringed. The party scene where they were talking about Dostoyevsky or whatever was such a poor stab at portraying young New Yorkers today.

― thing of thing, Friday, 4 June 2004 10:46 (twenty years ago) link

"stardust memories" was when he lost the plot. since then he's become the david bowie of movies, showing only glimmers of his original gifts amid shocking badness and shrinking cult worship. He's back, he's still matters, ah, well...1980 was the crap cutoff point for both these faded 70s icons.

― lovebug starski, Friday, 4 June 2004 12:05 (twenty years ago) link

I like how Woody's film company now think the best way to promote his films in America is to pretend they're not Woody Allen films.

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Friday, 4 June 2004 12:45 (twenty years ago) link

ir doesn't matter cause Annie Hall is so CLASSIC it hurts

― kephm, Friday, 4 June 2004 13:52 (twenty years ago) link

I blame Soon-Yi.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 4 June 2004 13:54 (twenty years ago) link

I think you would be better off blaming eiather
a) Mia Farrow
b) Woody Allen.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 4 June 2004 13:57 (twenty years ago) link

that whole pederasty business really helped him jumped the shark

― de, Friday, 4 June 2004 13:58 (twenty years ago) link

"Curb Your Enthusiasm" is way better that this crap.

― sexyDancer, Friday, 4 June 2004 13:58 (twenty years ago) link

than ilx you mean? it does rather resemble a cye book of scripts

― de, Friday, 4 June 2004 14:00 (twenty years ago) link

"That's not pathetic, that's FUNNY"

― sexyDancer, Friday, 4 June 2004 14:06 (twenty years ago) link

It's all been downhill since he stopped doing stand-up. (Note: I may or may not actually believe this).

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 4 June 2004 14:23 (twenty years ago) link

i've never seen (or heard) his stand-up. is it good?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 4 June 2004 19:18 (twenty years ago) link

Imagine the one-liners from his earlier movies without the encumbrance of a plot or romantic interest. Does that appeal to you?
I loved his books as a young ruffian, and I still do.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 4 June 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago) link

lovebug starksi otmfm

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 4 June 2004 19:27 (twenty years ago) link

didn't he stop doing standup in the 60s? His standup records are FANTASTIC. I actually love Stardust Memories and Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy, though they are pretty flawed. Post Manhattan-Crimes and Misdemeanors, Hannah and Her Sisters and Husbands and Wives were great, I liked Radio Days as well and Deconstructing Harry. I think like many filmmakers we see the crap but when he's dead and gone and we look at his work, he'll still have directed more great movies then most filmmakers.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 4 June 2004 19:35 (twenty years ago) link

I like Broadway Danny Rose and I guess Zelig's all right. I never found his pre-Annie Hall films all that funny myself. Is it my imagination or did Téa Leoni seem disgusted when she had to kiss Woody in Hollywood Ending?

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Friday, 4 June 2004 19:44 (twenty years ago) link

forgot about BDR: "interesting" film, and a scene was filmed in front of my NYC apartment at the time. I snagged a free bagel on the way to work one am.

― lovebug starski, Friday, 4 June 2004 22:13 (twenty years ago) link

I like later movies of his too, but the Bowie comparison was scarily apt

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 4 June 2004 22:18 (twenty years ago) link

Dan Selzer OTFM (except I would definitely include Broadway Danny Rose, Sweet and Lowdown and Zelig as very good films.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 June 2004 22:56 (twenty years ago) link

And Allen was always hit or miss.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 June 2004 22:59 (twenty years ago) link

Am I the only person who has time for Love and Death?

Here's the real challenge -- sit down and watch Interiors, September and Another Woman all in a row.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 4 June 2004 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

using an analogy Woody would definately like...Bergman made like 1 film a year for a billion years. Now we mostly speak pretty highly of him and remember all his classics, but he made a lot of films that aren't remembered as fondly and are often quite contested. He did have the luck of going out with a bang though, "retiring" after directing Fanny and Alexander.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 4 June 2004 23:12 (twenty years ago) link

Here's the real challenge -- sit down and watch Interiors, September and Another Woman all in a row.

...then line up shadows and fog and celebrity.

where is everyone?

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 4 June 2004 23:13 (twenty years ago) link

bergman DID make one or two films a year for a while

not that i've seen any of them.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 4 June 2004 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

Yes, that's what Dan just said.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 June 2004 23:27 (twenty years ago) link

Given his age, I don't think Woody Allen had any option but to let someone else play the "Woody Allen" role.

Never stopped him before!! I just dig that for the first time (or well, to the best of my knowedlege, anyway) Allen plays someone whose neurosis results in disaster exclusively for *others*, not him.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 4 June 2004 23:58 (twenty years ago) link

to make myself perfectly clear...Bergman and Woody both kept up a healthy and prolific output, and much as I'd hate to say it, when it's all said and done, Woody Allen made more great movies then say, Terrance Malick. As much as I admire Malick for making films only every now and again, I admire Allen for churning them out and trying to have fun with it. I mean, Shadows and Fog wasn't a great movie, but you can tell he was having a blast with the setting, the cinematography etc.

Also, not yet mentioned is Small Time Crooks, which was very much an above average comedy, I thought. And one where he played out of character, somewhat.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 5 June 2004 00:14 (twenty years ago) link

haha I loved Take the Money and Run and hated Manhattan! (But Annie Hall may be my all-time favourite movie.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 5 June 2004 00:49 (twenty years ago) link

No love for Deconstructing Harry?

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 5 June 2004 00:56 (twenty years ago) link

Skipping 116 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

yeah, Alfred pretty much nailed it.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:13 (eighteen years ago) link

what is Allen patting himself on the back about, exactly? Being sour and cynical (how is that something to be proud of)? I just don't see the self-congratulatory element you guys are harping on.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Just because being sour isn't something to be proud of doesn't mean people aren't proud of it, though. I mean, ILX is full of people like that. (I'm one of them at times myself, stupidly enough.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Crimes is infinitely more entertaining and subtle than Match Point (full of better actors, but also the multiple plots don't let any of the characters become as tiresome as Jonny's and Scarlett's). For the 'success at any price' theme, the champ is still Zelig though.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Crimes has got the blind rabbi bit, plus Alan Alda, plus the murder plot - its definitely got more meat on it, so to speak.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

"Comedy is tragedy plus time!"

(is Alda supposed to be Mel Brooks? Neil Simon? Or is it projected self-loathing?)

― p@reene (Pareene), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

you know, i'm no woody allen expert, but i saw 'match point' last night and really liked it, suprisingly enough, considering i am lukewarm about most films

― i've dreamt of rubies! (Mandee), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 21:46 (eighteen years ago) link

seven months pass...

I still haven't seen Match Point but I saw Scoop on the plane home and enjoyed it quite a bit. Charming and likeable, and if the on-the-boat reveal was maybe a little corny, I forgive it. I'm curious what you guys think of it.

― Sundar (sundar), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 09:32 (seventeen years ago) link

I saw Scoop on the plane as well, and it reminded me of a Nancy Drew caper my junior high drama class would put on each spring.

I know that ScarJo is capable of acting. Just not in Scoop.

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 14:51 (seventeen years ago) link

I saw the first 20 minutes of scoop on a plane (is it playing on airlines exclusively or something?) and couldn't stand anymore. why do people who can generally act feel the need to overact in woody allen movies? you'd think a dialogue-heavy movie would require the opposite. why is it even considered an honor to be in a woody allen film? i dont get it. and, yeah, these pretzels are making me thirsty.

― sunny successor agrees: gay dad always trumps slutty mom (katharine), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 14:55 (seventeen years ago) link

I know that ScarJo is capable of acting.
You're the only one, man.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 15:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Just to add to the fun, I saw Scoop on a plane last week too. I had to pause every 10 minutes to be able to get through it, it was that bad. Reminded me of a British quota quickie from the 1930's, or the winner of a school script-writing contest. How does he get away with it? You can only coast on a reputation for so long I would have thought.

― Matt #2 (Matt #2), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 15:03 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm with sundar, i thought it was pretty charming. i actually much preferred it to match point (which seemed pretty cold to me).

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:25 (seventeen years ago) link

(which seemed pretty cold to me).

The whole point!

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:27 (seventeen years ago) link

You can only coast on a reputation for so long

Bob Hope coasted on his for at least 40 years after he lost it, Woody only for (roughly) a decade. Plus he's essentially been exiled to the UK, what more do you want??

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 20:32 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah yeah i know it's THE POINT but i don't care. being a stanley kubrick obsessive as a teenager pretty much ultimately soured me on "cold = the point."

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 11 January 2007 10:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Birth?

― Gilded in Peat Reek, in a Perfect Whiskey Climate (The GZeus), Thursday, 11 January 2007 12:48 (seventeen years ago) link

JD, you're a smart guy, but Kubrick being "cold" is tired, tired, tired. Or shall we have Kevin Smith's "warmth"?

Anyway I think I will catch Crimes & Misdemeanors at MoMA's Sven Nykvist tributes.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 11 January 2007 14:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I thoroughly enjoyed Scoop, though I feel no need to see it again. I expected nothing from ScoJo's acting and got it, but it was still amusing to watch her pretend to be Jewish and awkward and middle class. Woody Allen's first magic show scene was a great bit of physical comedy.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 11 January 2007 14:28 (seventeen years ago) link

ten months pass...

weird people spotted in bit parts in Woody Allen films:

Zach Braff
Aida Turturro
Jerry Adler (okay this was a genuine leading role)
Sigourney Weaver (? apparently? I sure as shit couldn't identify her from that shot in Annie Hall)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Sylvester Stallone

― The Yellow Kid, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Tony Sirico!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Larry David

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I only like the new woody allen films because I only saw one old film, Annie Hall, and I hated it

― CaptainLorax, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:22 (seventeen years ago) link

a non-bald Paul Giammatti

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 26 November 2007 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link

I must say, the trailer for Cassandra's Dream was fucking sharp.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 November 2007 17:00 (seventeen years ago) link

HAHA xpost! omg, that trailer is horrifying

"FAMILY IS FAMILY and BLOOD IS BLOOD"

His ending up as king of bad British thrillers is a huge WTF

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 26 November 2007 17:02 (seventeen years ago) link

Didn't say it was good – it looked expensive! And shots of Ewan McGregor's tummy.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 26 November 2007 17:04 (seventeen years ago) link

when he can make Ewen and Colin sound like they're playing Woody in a Mean Streets skit, that's somethin'

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 26 November 2007 17:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I had no idea it was a Woody Allen film until his name appeared onscreen.

I'll see it.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 26 November 2007 17:44 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm still sort of taken aback by Matos' comment upthread about why he's not not a film buff. It only just occurred to me how rare it is these days to come across someone who will admit to being a fan of one and not a particular enthusiast of the other.

― Eric H., Tuesday, 27 November 2007 03:01 (seventeen years ago) link

There are differences between being a fan and a buff.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 03:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I still haven't seen Match Point. I hear wildly contradictory things about it.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 03:19 (seventeen years ago) link

also I recently rewatched everyone says I love you and I loved it! I don't care what any of you smart people say!

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 03:20 (seventeen years ago) link

edward norton gives my favorite ever non-woody allen woody allen performance!

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 03:21 (seventeen years ago) link

I like Everyone Says I Love You, esp the bit where Norton trips up during his big funeral-home musical number

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I hope the film of Cassandra's Dream drops the font of its trailer (Myriad, I think, which looks cheap and superficial: Apple uses it) and goes back to his usual font.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 17:05 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah EVERYONE SAYS I LOVE YOU roxx.

― pisces, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Tony Sirico shows up in that one too... the casting overlap between Sopranos and Allen's 90s films amuses me

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Sharon Stone cameo in Stardust Memories!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 3 December 2007 23:41 (seventeen years ago) link

one year passes...

Lewis Black in Hannah and Her Sisters

― Courtney Love's Jew Loan Officer (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 19 January 2009 04:13 (fifteen years ago) link

Not crap yet.

― my prefab arse just falls apart (sic), Monday, 19 January 2009 04:41 (fifteen years ago) link

I saw that and did lol on several occasions but then was overwhelmed by all that obvious wish fulfilment stuff with the ladiez. Let it lie Woody.

― The Unbelievably Insensitive Baroness Vadera (Ned Trifle II), Monday, 19 January 2009 08:27 (fifteen years ago) link

"Have no idea for Barcelona unless the story of the two Hackensack Jews who start a mail-order embalming firm.'

shame he ditched the idea.

― jed_, Monday, 19 January 2009 11:21 (fifteen years ago) link

Lewis Black in Hannah and Her Sisters

and juliet louis-dreyfus and john turturro!

― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Monday, 19 January 2009 14:29 (fifteen years ago) link

shadows and fog is where i pretty much said "fuck you, woody" what a pointless, dull piece of shit. i was lured into husbands and wives because of the whole mia/soon-yi meltdown, and that film had its moments but not enough to get me interested again

― velko, Monday, 19 January 2009 17:42 (fifteen years ago) link

Husband & Wives is perhaps my fave movie by him! So funny how answers can differ for this question... i hate recent stuff like Match Point though. Mighty Aphrodite might be the point where it all started to fall apart ..

― Vichitravirya_XI, Monday, 19 January 2009 19:56 (fifteen years ago) link

the Spanish diary thing was awesome, beat the movie with great ease.
I loved Shadows and Fog, magical movie. I think Woody is one of the few true victims of the Millennium Bug. He hasn't made a truely good movie in this century.

― Ludo, Monday, 19 January 2009 20:13 (fifteen years ago) link

two months pass...

cast of his next film ("serious comedy"):

Josh Brolin, Nicole Kidman, Anthony Hopkins, Freida Pinto, Naomi Watts and Antonio Banderas

― Past a Diving Jeter (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:29 (fifteen years ago) link

these days his casts don't matter as much as the script. Barcelona movie was crap.

― I'm Into that Japanese Pop-Funk (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 March 2009 21:39 (fifteen years ago) link

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