Has ILE Gone Rockist?

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And if so, who to blame? I wasn't sure it had.

― sundar subramanian, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Aargh. I meant ILM. Now it looks like I'm trying to get myself onto the New Answers page.

― sundar subramanian, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Could anyone please explain what "Rockist" means? I'm confused by the term. Thank you in advance.

― james, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I shoul;d answer cause I'm the one always saying it has. I don't think it has particularly, it's just a private running gag.

I think that with the expansion of posters and the upping of the seriousness and intensity of the threads (this latter a subjective point) two things have happened. The total pool of musical knowledge available on ILM has expanded. Which is great. The proportion of that pool taken up by references to indie and classic rock has also increased. Which is what leads me to jokingly call it rockist.

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

rockist = alex in nyc

popist = tom

sepratist = marcus garvey

mentalist = hanle y

― jess, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm fairly certain I'm rockist. But don't labels suck?

― Sean, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

bigamist = anthony.

(sorry...)

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I shall be neu-rockist with mentalist undertones.

P.S Thanks Tom!

― james, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That isn't a definition of rockism though.

Like all good isms also it spans a continuum of purity. I got accused by Guy Beckett of being "irredeemably rockist" some months back. Sean, Alex in NYC, and David R are all clearly rockists but of very different stripes. I would also class Ethan as a rockist despite him rarely talking about rock, and Sarah C. as not a rockist despite her liking half a ton of indie.

(all this is tongue at least half in cheek)

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm a schmockist. I'm really into that fruity sound.

― Arthur, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm a mock rockist

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

frockists = stevie nicks fans, salkists = anti-polio hardliners, cockists = cynthia plastercaster & friends, statscockists = you know who you are, pockists = fans of bryan adams' face, clockists = flavor flav fans.

― fritz, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i am rockist: i was talking with ian a while back about why i don't like actual club techno to dance to and instead have the typical backpacker kid love for idm and figured it's because that both rap and idm are 'serious' kinda of danceable music; which rock could easily be grouped under as well. i take serious music seriously, i love/ hate/tweak the hiphop canon, i cherish the artists who were monumental and influential, i value skills and innovation over of-the-moment pleasure, etc etc etc. i am rockist. i'm not entirely proud of it though.

― ethan, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Wokist= Ken Hom?

― emil.y, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sarah C and Katie G = sockists. Nude Spock = oh my aching sides.

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Remember the Men in Frocks movement of the early 80s. That anarchist punk trannie genre. Wasn't it a Sounds thing? Or Record Mirror, maybe. Mark S? Dr. C? Please refresh my memory.

― Arthur, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

so what am i and — perhaps more trickily — what is the pinefox?

― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

sorry you sneaked in while i wasn't looking arthur: erm, i haven't a klew (which means it must be record mirror haha)

― mark s, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark S = switch. Pinefox = ultra-montane.

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

they make a serious post while everyone else is punning = they are rockists.

― ethan, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

pinefox = mocks us, & the sinker = raucous!

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Choc-stockists = mark e. smith supporters, maraca-ists = fans of shakers, jockists = chili peppers completists, schlockists = celine dion apologists.

― fritz, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

aRTHuR SeZ:

Remember the Men in Frocks movement of the early 80s. That anarchist punk trannie genre. Wasn't it a Sounds thing? Or Record Mirror, maybe. Mark S? Dr. C? Please refresh my memory.

It was a sounds thing. Mainly due to a writer called valac van der veene (IIRC - I may be wrong, as it was a long time ago, a kind of lo-rent Kris Kirk) The "Name" bands were the Virgin Prunes (VVDV wrote a page long review of a gig where he boasted they gave him a big stiffy) as well as some proto-gothix0r band whose mane eludes me @ present - I keep thinking UK Decay, but I think I'm wrong. Thee singer was called Stu P Didiot is all I can remember. That, and the fact that he did look pretty good in a leather miniskirt. I never had the nerve to do the onstage tranny thang myself - mainly due to wide build, but I still fancy a pair of black stilettos as stagewear. Sadly, they don't do them in a size 11.

― Norman Phay, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I am sad very often.

Jimmy = sadist.

(heh...)

― JM, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd be leaning towards the less IDM side of dance but not quite utter cheese either. The big dancefloor tracks tend to have no soul.

As for rockist or whatever I don't know what I am. Probably don't want to know either. Oldmanmusicist apparently. Whatever.

― Ronan, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ILM goes rockist = people like me arrive.

Except the problem with using the term "rockist" is the implication that the ILM indie/rock contingent is actually aggressively purist about rock, which I don't think is the case; I was under the impression that most of the ILM rockers, like me, were initially attracted to Freakytrigger and ILM based on a desire to expand from our increasingly-insular rock circles. It's worked for me, anyway, insofar as I am far more excited about listening to music now than I was a year ago, during my "Why don't these new indie records excite me anymore?" period.

That said, I just did laundry and am now happy to self-identify as "sockist."

― Nitsuh, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think I am about 85% rockist, even when it comes to my choice of classical music.

― Maria, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know about rockist...I mean it has leaned much more towards rock but it's really no one's fault but our own, and by our own I mean people like me who ditched the idea of asking questions for ages and ages. If you think it's rockist, ask a popist question and vice versa, ya know.

― Ally, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Popist" versus "rockist," but we all agree to hate pop/rock?

― Nitsuh, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

As for rockist or whatever I don't know what I am.

Here's yer answer:

The big dancefloor tracks tend to have no soul.

― Graham, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

If we hate pop/rock then why are we labelling anyone or anything rockist?

― Ally, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That's what's funny. We've posited "rockists" and "popists," but the only thing that's consistently picked on is pop/rock of the Starsailor / Coldplay variety. Although I seem to remember Tom liking a Matchbox 20 single, or something along those lines.

― Nitsuh, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Third Eye Blind.

Starsailor/Coldplay are more rockist than anything because they're reliant on a tradition rather than committed to its development.

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

To be honest, I really don't understand the debate we're having. Sure, there are periods on ILM where we talk about a lot of very trad rock dinosaurs. There are also periods where every other thread is about that Zombie Nation song (well, ok, not quite that extreme, but...). I honestly do think that, looking thru the archives, there's a good balance, and not only that but everyone made such a big fuss about the pop/rock distinction and the popist versus rockist thing being a false dichotomy, why are we doing it now?

Who actually thinks that it's gone "rockist"? Raise yer hands, matey.

― Ally, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Question is not *topic* of discussion, but criteria. I.E. "can they play their instruments" vs. "can I sing/dance along"?

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That's a very simplistic division though, and I think it's a false one and also one that doesn't apply by and large to ILM.

― Ally, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ILM has not necc. become more rockist but has settled into a cosy eclecticism whereby accusing people of being rockist becomes useful (when it leads onto other questions) because people - particularly not eclectic modern music fans - don't like being accused of anything. There have been some great ILM threads recently.

Another way of looking at it - "I don't agree with you" vs "I don't understand you". The looseness of ILE means that understanding is not expected so misunderstanding doesn't spark stuff the way it might on ILM.

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a whole set of criteria, rules of thumb, etc. which I think is clustered together as rockism and another for popism and yes it is complex. I just gave two examples of one criterion from either set.

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, one shouldn't underestimate the cultural aspects of the thing, either -- language, trope, image, mode of address, etc. Which is to say: you could throw Nelly onto a Tortoise track or Steve Malkmus onto a Bad Boy production and conclusively demonstrate that it's not just about musical criteria.

― Nitsuh, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually, Malkmus + Neptunes in teen-pop mode would be sweet as hell.

― Nitsuh, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think rockist is a term of abuse that Americans tend not to understand, because they tend to think it's about whether you like the Skynard or not. Whereas it's more about a pompousity about talking about music, a belief in canons and a fear of frivolity. Guitars-or-not is not the issue: liking Autreche is rockist, liking the Sweet isn't. (Generally, women are often rockist, although they often like to rock). I suspect that ILM has always been rockist, despite Tom's best intentions - people whose My Bloody Valentine obsessions overwhelm any fleeting flirtation with Britney - and has been terminally so since the ILE schism.

― Mark Morris, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually, Malkmus + Neptunes in teen-pop mode would be sweet as hell.

get this boy an a&r job. RIGHT NOW.

― jess, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What inspired HTML guru with no time on his/her hands wants to make a "Are YOU a Rockist?" on-line test? Let's settle this, once and for all.

― Brian MacDonald, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

people whose My Bloody Valentine obsessions overwhelm any fleeting flirtation with Britney

My Britney obsession overwhelms any fleeting flirtation with My Bloody Valentine.

― Ian, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if kevin sheilds and britney spears had a baby, it would RULE THE WORLD.

― jess, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Thanks, Norman! Stu P. Didiot is exactly the anarchotrannie I was thinking of, and I can't remember the name of his band, either.

― Arthur, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if kevin sheilds and britney spears had a baby, it would RULE THE WORLD.

As neither of them can conventionally sing, you might be onto something there. ;-) As it is, though, I can't tell whether you characters who like the new album do so because of the production or because of her (big hint where I stand -- RELEASE AN INSTRUMENTAL MIX, please).

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Can you be classicist or jazzist, or are rockist and poppist the only divisions?

― Maria, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Rockist and anti-rockist. Most of the discourse around classical and jazz is rockist.

― Tom, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

**Whereas it's more about a pompousity about talking about music, a belief in canons and a fear of frivolity** - said Mark Morris

Good description! I really don't think ILM is particularly rockist - although it might be seen that way if pompousness is confused with seriousness. Pomp = rockist, serious doesn't. I don't think there's been any change over the year.

I'm probably seen as having rockist tendencies, which is not necessarily unfair. Somehow my rockist side seems to come to the fore and I'll end up debating the merits of a Josef K b-side rather than the total and utter joy of The Real Thing's "You To Me Are Everything".

Stu. P. Didiot - sorry to be a letdown Arthur, but I can't remember the band. Norman is close, but it wasn't UK Decay, although IIRC they had a huge black geezer playing bass who sometimes used to wear a skirt. I'll ask around, one of my friends will know.

― Dr. C, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom's either being silly or he's never been to music school. Of course you can be classicist or jazzist and still be anti-rockist, though different terms are used. "High-culture approach" maybe.

― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

high culture approachist?

― jess, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Starsailor/Coldplay are more rockist than anything because they're reliant on a tradition rather than committed to its development."

i love tom! i love tom! i love tom! etc etc etc etc....

― katie, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Rockist has been thrown around so much as a term and used in so many different contexts I think it's lost meaning.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ethan ethan ethan!

This is your last chance to email JC with your mailing address, otherwise the ile mix is going to pass your rockist self by.

― bnw, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Eh. Classicist is different I think. Rockist can be like "Rock and the Pop Narcotic" sort of glorification of balls-to-the-wall primalism like Ted Nugent and stuff. Wheras the cerebralism of classical can in fact be much more restrained in approach -- seeking different sorts of quality markers. Also, with Jazz you can have types who go for the "swing" and who go for the "unrestrained" emotional release and types who go for the chops and suchforth. I prefer to think of the general tension being between grail-seeking "authenticity" hounding and, um, well, and those who don't.

― Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No, Sterling, you'd be surprised how close the arguments of high- culture critics come to those of someone like Carducci. Basically that an 'authentic,' emotionally 'real' art form with an elite audience is under siege by mass-produced mindless commercial pap with no soul.

― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

One of the most flattering things anyone's ever said to me was in an email exchange with Nitsuh when Nitsuh started a paragraph with "Your argument, on the other hand, is the most radically pro-pop I think I've ever encountered"

― Ian, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The discourse around hiphop is also fairly Rockist, no?

― Mitch Lastnamewithheld, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A lot of it is, yeah.

― Tom, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't get this thread at all. I'm still wondering.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Still it's nice to be called a rockist and not a racist with the week that's in it.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sundar -- I agree that both can be anti-pop. But the difference is if "craft" "technique" or "soul" is centrally at issue.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

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