this is awful

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I did a search and couldn't find a thread about this, so, yeah. This makes me want to cry a lot: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Midwest/06/21/bodies.found.ap/index.html

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:35 (twenty-one years ago)

What's there to say?

Aaron A., Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Just that it's the worst possible thing I can think of, maybe. I mean, if whoever did this had shot the kids first, it would be totally fucking terrible, but it would still be better than this.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

those kids had cute names.

vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah. I just keep seeing things about this on the news and it's really one of the most sickening things I've ever heard of. I was surprised there wasn't a thread about it already.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps because as awful and gruesome as this is, shit like this happens all the time in the good ol US of A.

Aaron A,., Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, that's a great way of thinking about it.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:56 (twenty-one years ago)

It's an honest way.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I feel ill.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, I guess I don't see what is dishonest about being completely appalled and disgusted by this. But whatever.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 02:58 (twenty-one years ago)

as awful and gruesome as this is

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, thank you. Now I remember why I haven't been online in over a week.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Why? He merely suggested why there wasn't already on thread on this. The possibilities are either (a) nobody knew about it or (b)nobody thought it was sufficiently unusual to warrant a thread or (c) nobody was personally connected to the story. No jokes were made. No inappropriate photos were posted.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:10 (twenty-one years ago)

He was just telling you one reason why there might not have already been thread on it.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it was more the "It's an honest way" than anything else that got to me. And, I guess, my opinion that just because horrible shit happens all the time in this country, it shouldn't be ignored.

kirsten (kirsten), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

You're right! And it's my opinion that pointing out that horrible shit happens all the time is ok to do and doesn't betray any kind of mental disorder.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

i imagine there's nothing to say about this, though, other than how horrifying and sad it is.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Honesty is different for different people

David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I ruined that

David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Ach, I hate it when men in trouble kill their family when they kill themselves. Women don't tend do do that. The horrible thing is I understand it.

Sad.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Women do tend to do that.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, maybe you're right. I don't know.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:25 (twenty-one years ago)

cheer up, nick :-)

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Psychologically (stipulating the horribleness of the whole thing), the impulse to kill your children before killing yourself is interesting. It seems very selfish-geneish, in the negative: erasing all traces of your genetic self so that none of it is carried forward.

spittle (spittle), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I was trying to think of why someone would do that. That's one theory. Another is that the person didn't want their kids to have to deal with whatever hardships they themselves were escaping. Another is that the person is completely batshit crazy and heard the voice of God telling them to do it (like the one woman who killed her sons a few years ago, though she didn't committ suicide afterwards)

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess the following, from the SF Chronicle, is kind of what I meant, though I would take issue with the implication that these men aren't suffering 'extreme psychological disturbances' too - just of a different kind.

When men kill their offspring, they are more likely to commit suicide, experts say. Women often attempt suicide, as did the Chicago and Ventura County mothers, but fail, as they did.

Motives also differ.

Contemporary family stresses -- financial pressures, marital conflicts, substance abuse, a history of childhood abuse -- often play a role in paternal homicides, experts say.

"Men almost always have experienced a tremendous loss, lost their jobs, lost the ability to control the family," says Charles Patrick Ewing, a law professor and psychologist at the University of Buffalo and author of "Fatal Families."

"These are narcissistic, self-centered guys who see themselves as the glue of the family. They feel they have to take their own life, but first, they have to kill the children. To them, it seems rational. They think they can't manage and the family can't manage without them."

By contrast, he says, women more often kill their offspring because of extreme psychological disturbances.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Half of all filicides (murder of children age 1 through 16) and infanticides (children under the age of one year), are perpetrated by a parent. Following the murder, 16 to 29% of the mothers commit suicide, while 40 to 60% of the fathers do so (Adleson, 1991; Myers, 1970; Rodenburg, 1971; Wiley, Pearn, Petric and Nixon, 1982; d’Orban, 1979).

This Slate article is also interesting.

I'll try to cheer up now.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:48 (twenty-one years ago)

This kind of behavior is still shit and, indeed, "awful", despite how often it may occur in our society. It also goes VERY MUCH against what should be a natural instinct to guard one's children ferociously, as if one were a lion or tiger protecting the little cubs from harm.

Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:55 (twenty-one years ago)

(Note that I said "should be". Not "must be" or "is".)

Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 04:56 (twenty-one years ago)

actually i think it may be the cause of that instinct, albeit perverted

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 05:06 (twenty-one years ago)

You mean 'the cause may be that instinct'?

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

This academic paper draws a distincition I was reaching for, between men who do it out of anger and jealousy, and those who do it out of desperation and skewed duty. It's the latter that meant I could empathise with, that make me feel sad in a particular way. I saw a documentary on TV recently about a horrible example of it, loving father whose debts piled up and up whilst maintaining the facade that all was OK, until one night he cracked and smothered his wife and children before killing himself.


Published case descriptions suggest that two rather different sorts of familicide sce-
nario recur, differing with respect to die killer’s motivation, yet both reflecting a mas-
culine uxorial proprietariness.
In the first variety the killer professes a grievance against his wife, usually with re-
spect to alleged infidelities and/or her intending or acting to terminate the marriage.
Overt and even public expressions of his aggrieved hostility are often conspicuous, and a history of violence may be noted. In a 1984 Canadian example, a man killed his
estranged wife, his 5-year-old daughter, his infant son, his wife’s parents, and himself.
The couple had been residing apart for several months after a 10-year marriage; the
wife had launched divorce proceedings. During the separation the killer had assaulted
and threatened his wife repeatedly. One neighbor volunteered that “one minute he’d
have a knife at her throat and the next he’d be at her feet asking for forgiveness”;
another neighbor described him as “bitterly jealous” about his wife’s having found
part-time employment outside the home (Calgary Herald, March 2, 1984, p. 43). In
another Canadian case, a man killed his wife, his two daughters aged 6 and 4, and then himself. Close friends said the marriage was rife with violence and the killer was obsessed with controlling his wife. The friend alleged the killer had once said to his wife “I’ll kill you and the kids if you ever leave me” as he couldn’t picture her with anyone else. Apparently, he had shown no signs of depression (Winnipeg Free Press, Dec. 27, 1989, p. 10). In a 1986 British example, an ex-policeman killed his wife and her four sons (the elder two his stepsons, the younger two his own), then shot himself, upon his wife’s return from a rendezvous at which she and a lover had been working out her divorce plans (The Times, Aug. 21, 1986, p. 3). In an Australian case described by Goldney (1977, pp. 18-19), a man shot his wife, his sons aged 8 and 6, and his daughter aged 4, but spared his 15-month-old son, then drove to a nearby quarry and shot himself, after making a series of public (and apparently delusional) accusations of his wife’s infidelity. These cases appear similar to many nonfamilicidal uxoricides [Campbell, 1992, Crawford and Gartner, 1992; Wilson and Daly, 1992a, 1993a].

Apparently rather different are cases in which the killer is a depressed and brooding
man, who may apprehend impending disaster for himself and his family, and who sees familicide followed by suicide as “the only way out.” Expressions of hostility toward the victims are generally absent (or at most ambiguous) in such cases, and the despon dent killer may even characterize his deed as an act of mercy or rescue. In a 1984 Canadian case, for example, a man drove his wife and two daughters, ages 9 and 1, to a quiet creekside “lover’s lane,” where he strangled all three, set fire to his car, and shot himself. In this case, no previous assaults or expressions of hostility were noted in newspaper reports; on the contrary, neighbours and relatives alike af-
firmed that the killer had been a loving husband and father. He had, however, be-
come increasingly depressed about having lost a series of jobs (Toronto Star, June
2, 1984, p. Al, A4). Similarly, a 55-year-old American man who killed his wife
and son in their beds with a hammer, and then bungled a suicide attempt, gave this
account: “I kept thinking about the bills coming, the house taxes. Piling up, piling
up in my mind ...I thought everything was going to fall around my head. I know
it could be a catastrophe in a short time. My son wouldn’t be able to stand the
stigma, my wife wouldn’t have the things she was used to” [MacDonald, 1961, p.
222]. Similar cases have been described by Guttmacher [1960, p. 105]; West [1965,
pp. 53, 71], Scott [1973, p. 122], Hirose [1979, pp. 212-213], and Bénézech [1991,
pp. 159-162]. The prevalence of these despondent/depressive cases in the psychi-
atric literature is especially striking when one considers that the many successful
suicides escape psychiatric scrutiny.
Even those who complete their suicides sometimes leave accounts of their motives,
and these accounts often echo what the failed suicides tell the psychiatrists. Here, for
example, is an excerpt from a letter left by a South African businessman who, facing
bankruptcy and a probable prison term, shot his sleeping wife and children with a cross-bow, set fire to his house, and then shot himself with a pistol [Graser, 1992a, p. 77]: “I lost the business due to a legal technicality, but, in the process, lost my house, my cars—just everything...I cannot let my family suffer the degradation of losing everything we possess and being thrown penniless onto the street.” The killer’s claim to be rescuing his victims may also invoke impending disasters of broader scope than the private consequences of the killer’s own failures, as in this excerpt from a suicide note left by a 52-year-old English librarian who killed his wife, his daughter, and his mother, before shooting himself: “For some years now I have wished to die. However, this would have meant leaving the three persons dearest in the world to me without my protection. I can’t leave them to the threat of death from radiation sickness after the coming atomic war...I have been dead professionally for 12 years, of which the last 10 have been a nightmare. More important, I have felt this more since reaching 50. I am a man who thought himself a poet and wished to be nothing more, yet I have not succeeded in having published as much as a single line” (The Times, April 28, 1984, p. 3).
The despondent nonhostile killer may constitute a reliably distinct category of
familicide from the hostile accusatory familicidal killer. Unfortunately, data in the Ca-
nadian and British homicide archives do not permit any straightforward test of the general applicability or utility of a simple dichotomy between hostile, accusatory familicides and nonhostile, despondent ones. Suicide clearly cannot be treated as the defining criterion, both because accusatory killers can be suicidal, too, and because despondent killers’ suicide attempts may fall. Nevertheless, suicide may be expected to be less prevalent in the hostile cases than in the despondent ones, and the rarity of suicide in cases involving stepchildren may be interpreted as supporting this idea, since the presence of stepchildren is a strong correlate of hostile violence against both wives and the children themselves [Daly and Wilson, 1988a,b, 1994b; Daly et at., 1993].

In any event, as different as these two proposed categories of familicides appear, they
have this in common: the killer’s professed rationale for his actions invokes a propri-
etary conception of wife and family. The hostile, accusatory familicidal killer is often
enraged at the alienation of his wife, and may declare that “If I can’t have her, no one
can.” The despondent familicide perpetrator instead appears to believe that his victims could not persist or cope in his absence, and that their deaths are therefore necessary, perhaps even merciful, corollaries to his suicide. In either case, the killer apparently feels entitled to decide his victims’ fates. Such proprietary constructions of the marital relationship are conspicuous and germane in a large proportion of nonfamilicidal uxoricides, too [Wilson and Daly, 1992a, 1994a,b], but what inspires a minority of these proprietary wife-killers to murder their children as well remains unknown.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 05:25 (twenty-one years ago)

How does "they feel they have to take their own life, but first, they have to kill the children" differ from having "extreme psychological disturbances"

dave q, Tuesday, 22 June 2004 05:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, exactly.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 05:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess it's because 'crazy lady' violent symptoms are more mysterious to us than those of a violent man. Aggressive male violence is kind of normalised in our society. That's just men for you, kind of thing.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 05:58 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not just "the good ol' US of A". Last week, the Finnish newspapers had big headlines about a couple who, after years of several indebtness, shot their children and then themselves. At first it was thought that the father had killed both the children and his wife, but the investigations revealed the couple had planned and carried out this together.

What's important, in my opinion, is not just to lament the human condition, but to think about how such occurrences might be stopped. In this case, if the couple's debt problems would've been alleviated, they probably would've gone over the edge. Or, if their mental problems would've been noted and attended to, none of this might've not happened. Finland has a pretty comprehensive and free-for-all health care system, including psychiatric treatment, but it has gone through sizable budget cuts during the last few years. Cases like this might be what those budget cuts have cost us.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 07:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not saying that the welfare society can solve all such cases, but at least it has a good chance of preventing many of them. Last year, the Swedish foreign minister was stabbed to death. It was found out that, before the stabbing, the killer had tried to commit himself to a psychiatric hospital, unsuccesfully. Sweden has gone through similar budget cuts as Finland, undermining the capacity of it's health care system. If this man's problems would've attended to early on, the stabbing would've never happened.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 07:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Socialized debt management WITH SOCIAL STIGMA would do a lot to help here, I think.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Huh? If you get help from the government/municipality in alleviating your debts, they don't paint "INDEBTED BASTARDS" on your door with red paint. Of course it can put (and often does) a stigma in your own mind ("I can't stand on my own!"), but it still better getting help from someone than getting no help at all.

There is a difference between welfare systems here, I think. In Finland there's a wide selection of government subsidies and welfare services, and everyone's entitled to them, so they aren't particularly stigmatizing. I guess it's different in the US.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

They named the kids after genius inventors...

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 22 June 2004 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

five years pass...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8610491.stm

lllljjjj (acoleuthic), Thursday, 8 April 2010 23:46 (fifteen years ago)

yes, that is awful

Jesse James Woods (darraghmac), Friday, 9 April 2010 11:33 (fifteen years ago)

read this yesterday, can't believe it!
A 2009 law setting the minimum age at 17 was repealed after some lawmakers said it was un-Islamic.

not_goodwin, Friday, 9 April 2010 12:31 (fifteen years ago)

seven years pass...

Musha isn't everything only awful

remember the lmao (darraghmac), Friday, 19 January 2018 00:20 (seven years ago)


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