Could someone please explain DIEGESIS for me?

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i just read this definition, but it seems to contradict what i had learned in the many cinema studies classes i took in college--anyone care to set the record straight?


In film, diegesis is the narrative that includes all the parts of the story that are not actually shown on the screen, such as events that have led up to the present action; people who are being talked about; or events that are presumed to have happened elsewhere; in fact, all the frames, spaces and actions not focused on visually in the film's main narrative.

Music in films is termed diegetic music if it is part of the narrative of the film, such as the story of a musician's life, or the story of a particular piece of music. However, music is non-diegetic, if it consists of mere background music.

waxyjax (waxyjax), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:08 (twenty years ago)

that definition is incorrect.

in film studies terms (as established by the neoformalists, who were adapting the term from the russian formalists, who were adapting the term from aristotle), the "diegesis" is all the information/circumstance that occurs within the world of the fiction being presented.

for example, music shown as blasting from a car radio in the film would be diegetic. soundtrack music with no apparent source onscreen would be non-diegetic.

there are other, slightly different concepts of "diegesis" but this is the concept within a film studies context.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:11 (twenty years ago)

What Amateurist said; that's how it was taught to me, and how I've used it, albeit not in film studies classes specifically.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago)

(But academic terminology "drifts" regularly enough that there are often conference panels devoted to nothing more than debating which version is right.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago)

I KNEW IT!

thanks, guys....i read that definition in wikipedia, wordiq and a few other sites. i thought i'd gone insane.

waxyjax (waxyjax), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago)


(But academic terminology "drifts" regularly enough that there are often conference panels devoted to nothing more than debating which version is right.)
-- Tep (icaneatglas...) (webmail), June 30th, 2004 2:15 PM. (ktepi) (later) (link)

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:17 (twenty years ago)

whoops.

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:17 (twenty years ago)

Weird, wikipedia is usually a surprisingly good source of info -- but the vulnerability, of course, is that it isn't vetted as such, just editable. Here and there I've run into weird blind spots there. If you ran across that definition elsewhere, that might be why ... or for all I know there's some school of thought using the term in a completely different way.

(Someone else may know the specifics, but a linguistics prof told me once that there's a discipline that uses langue and parole in the opposite way they were intended, and aren't bothered when this is pointed out. This may be apocryphal.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago)

amateur!st and Tep are OTM as far as my understanding of it goes, and seeing as I was discussing the term with a doctor of film a couple of months ago I doubt we're wrong.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:31 (twenty years ago)

like a guy who treats sick movies?

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:31 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, totally. He cured Irreversible of a sore ass.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago)

Fuck me that was in bad taste. He is a doctor of French film, though.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago)

You know, the concept itself -- as a thing that's easily grasped and yet at the same time cool to pay attention to -- is so nice that I actually remember when I first came across it: writing a paper on David Lynch for a music class as an undergrad. There's a scene in Twin Peaks where a bit of Badalamenti's score is playing, nothing we hadn't already heard (non-diegetically) elsewhere in the series -- and then Sherilyn Fenn (iirc) gets up, changes the song on the jukebox, and the score stops and you realize that either it was diegetic in this case or it was taking the place of something that was. Which was cool.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:36 (twenty years ago)

some cool reading:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/amia-l/2003/07/msg00096.html

tep: there is another example of such a switch in the classic martin lawrence/tim robbins comedy nothing to lose

amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:38 (twenty years ago)

Man, I never thought I'd rent that movie, but now I have to!

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:40 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i always that part of the final exam where i had to jot down each and every camera movement in a sequence...but the diegetic vs. non-diegetic portions of my tests were always a breeze.

i've never encountered a film academic, in the states or abroad, who would disagree with the definition as we here in this thread have agreed on...i'd like to find out who submitted that definition in wikipedia...

waxyjax (waxyjax), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:41 (twenty years ago)

(RE: Nothing to Lose - It's actually better than you'd think.)

St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 20:42 (twenty years ago)

Amat. et all OTM. xpost xpost

" Mimesis is a species of imitation, although the word has specialized uses ensuring that it is not a straightforward synonym. Mimesis is the enactment of the elements of a text as opposed to the imagination of them -- in other words, the showing of things as opposed to the telling of things (diegesis). An actor performing a play engages the text mimetically, whereas a reader of a play engages it diegetically. "

Skottie, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 23:48 (twenty years ago)

yeah we're all familiar with those great moments when what we THINK is non-diegetic music suddenly makes itself known as part of the diegesis i.e. the record going SCREE on the turntable, or somebody hitting stop on the tape player (a recent example that springs immediately to mind is in the opening scene of Japanese Story) but what about the reverse, that is, music we THINK is coming from within the scene somewhere but we realize is not? why is this rarer?

another question: what else is this term useful for besides music? can you have a non-diegetic character? a non-diegetic gin and tonic?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 1 July 2004 00:18 (twenty years ago)

Plot structures are non-diegetic when they're non-chronological; expressionistic bits like the cartoon square Uma draws in Pulp Fiction outside Jack Rabbit Slim's (and, outside movies, speed lines and so on in comics -- whereas the "speed line" of Mighty Mouse's cape actually is diegetic); editing techniques and so on are non-diegetic, so that the audience will be aware of the significance when a character says "Whoever could have killed Uncle Ronald?!" and the camera zooms in on the butler -- but the characters will not be.

I think the reverse of the music thing would be rarer because you're talking about changing the audience's default assumption -- even though that assumption's correct. Most of the music in most major movies (or television) is non-diegetic; I think we parse it that way when we don't have any reason not to. So you'd have to signal that it's actually in the scene, but then point out that it isn't ...

Dialogue's the other way around, on the other hand. If a scene opens and we hear dialogue that isn't obvious VO, we'll assume it's in the scene even if we don't see a source.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 1 July 2004 00:27 (twenty years ago)

You could call foreshadowing non-diegetic, but that might be pushing the usefulness of the term (I guess it depends on what the context of discussion is).

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 1 July 2004 00:30 (twenty years ago)

That's interesting. I always thought the diagesis was the narrator's voice, usually overdubbed in a film, eg 'We start this story back when I was a freshman at UCLA'. This is a more complex meaning.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Thursday, 1 July 2004 00:37 (twenty years ago)

I'm sad because I misread this thread title as "could someone please explain DEGRASSI to me."

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:31 (twenty years ago)

Well that's simple. It's all contained in those lyrics by The Zit Remedy.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:35 (twenty years ago)

What isn't contained in those lyrics?

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:38 (twenty years ago)

don't answer that plz

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:38 (twenty years ago)

Explain the Diagesis in this, mate:

http://www.degrassi.ca/Archives/Index/Lyrics/zit-song.htm

Everybody get ready and get into gear,
the Degrassi sensation,
the one and only,
Zit Remedy is here.* (The Zits are here)
Everybody wants something, they'll never give up.
Everybody wants something, they'll take your money and never give up.
Everybody face up to the facts as they are,
Dedication is hard but, you'll be somebody and you will go far.
Everybody wants something, they'll never give up.
Everybody wants something, they'll take your money and never give up.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:40 (twenty years ago)

Man, I actually remembered it having less lyrics.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 1 July 2004 01:42 (twenty years ago)

diegesis and extradiegesis are useful concepts to replace the troublesome notions of "form" and "content." (there is no content without form, and they are ultimately inextricable except in the most general sense, so that dichotomy can pretty much be scratched if you're to do any real analysis of a work of art.) but of course there are plenty of movies where there is continual play b/t the levels of d. and e.d. godard's la chinoise is a canonical example. another is love me tonight which tracer hand should see NOW.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 02:58 (twenty years ago)

Diegesis in five words or less: Diegesis furthers the narrative.

Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 1 July 2004 12:03 (twenty years ago)

Underscoring "furthers the narrative" but it's not diegetic.

Narrative is composed of things that happen in the story, combined with comments the storyteller makes about those things. It seems like Tep's saying EVERYTHING that can be construed as comment - like editing techniques - is non-diegetic, i.e. cutting from one person to another doesn't happen in real-life. But shifting your attention from one person's face to another does happen in real life, so I'm not sure about that.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:10 (twenty years ago)

It's not that it doesn't happen in real life -- it's that if it happens in the movie, and the camera isn't POV, it happens for the audience and not the characters. Particularly in this case, when the story and expectations have changed for the audience, while the characters continue on their oblivious way -- just as when suspenseful music lets us know someone's about to get whacked in the head or whatever.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:16 (twenty years ago)

TO be continued!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 1 July 2004 17:18 (twenty years ago)

I would answer this thread, but as a film studies major it brings back horrible, horrible memories for me.

AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Thursday, 1 July 2004 17:24 (twenty years ago)

me too

duke yikes, Thursday, 1 July 2004 19:02 (twenty years ago)

See, that's why it's better to major in pop culture instead, then abandon the academy altogether except for the occasional essay about some old TV show.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 1 July 2004 19:24 (twenty years ago)

my brain is kinda rusty. if i can find, i'll pull out narration in the fiction film and give the definitive lowdown on this concept and its applications.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 20:16 (twenty years ago)

I'm actually using it -- the term, not that text -- for an essay that's on my plate at the moment, so likewise, if I finish it during the break I can cut and paste whatever definition I end up using. Or possibly I'll cut and paste the one Amateurist quotes for us!

(It's for one of those "essays about TV shows" collections on My So-Called Life, and the diegesis of the show is one of the main things I'm talking about. According to my abstract, anyway.)

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 1 July 2004 20:20 (twenty years ago)

Or possibly I'll cut and paste the one Amateurist quotes for us!

going rate for excerpts is $0.35/word.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 20:22 (twenty years ago)

four years pass...

If I use "diegesis" as the opposite of/complement to "mimesis" -- the former being the "tell" of "Show, don't tell" -- would I be betraying all the rest of my narratological impulses? Which is to say, I'd better not use "diegesis" to refer to the narrative world? Is the diegesis/mimesis pair still used in academic settings, even?

Leee, Thursday, 26 February 2009 04:58 (sixteen years ago)


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