Peter Singer - classic or dud? OR "It's OK to kill disabled babies!"

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http://news.independent.co.uk/people/profiles/story.jsp?story=536906

Can ILE even begin to approach this issue at present?

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

His views are a tad harsh but that's utilitarianism for ya.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure he is a fully-fledged utilitarianist so much as a pragmatist with HEAVY accent on dispassionate reason. He's not saying we SHOULD kill disabled babies (say), just that, if it appears to be the best cause of action it should be accepted as a reasonable option.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably not. Particularly given c*l*m's continuing presence.

Saying that, I think treating utilitarianism as a solid philosophical base to build a rigourous moral or ethical system on is asking for trouble, and that the notion of animal rights is deeply suspect.

Ricardo (RickyT), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Utilitarianism is too close to relativism-by-democracy for me, and that strikes me as dangerous.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Haven't read the article, but the disabled baby's good would be included in a utilitarian view wouldn't it? Or is he a TOTAL UTILITARIAN, fuck that shit

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Well thats pretty much utilitarianism imo, whatever course of action benefits the greatest amount of people, he may just not be saying we should kill disabled babies due to the obvious reaction of society to such a statement (however he seems to revel in making challenging statements) there is a reason why my phil teacher referred to JB as "Bonkers" Bentham.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think that "we have started to think more in terms of quality of life" holds much water as a pointer towards a shift in public morality. It seems more likely to work against it to me.

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Also he says he does not count newborn babies as people.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 1 July 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

My colleague suggested Singer was most useful as a kind of Chris Morris figure, a kind of cultural terrorist asking people to lose reliance on didactic, dogmatic, handed-down principles of morality.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

John Stuart Spock (daveb), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Somewhere between the two poles lies an acceptable solution, makes sense.

x-post

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, I think Singer's arguments on the treatment of animals are very good, it's the only reasonable philosophy I've come across which deals with the question of what to do with animal suffering without reverting back to mysticism or religion. Most people (and most Western legislatures) acknowledge that making animals suffer is wrong. Singer just takes that acknowledgement and tries to systematically argue what follows from it.

By the way, isn't it already legal for parents to abort an severely disabled child if they so choose, at least back here it is.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"the notion of animal rights is deeply suspect"

Peter Singer does not write or defend animal rights. He bases his opinions on animal welfare issues.

Overall I'd say he's classic, but I disagree with some of the things he raises.

C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 1 July 2004 14:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Calum OTM; Singer is NOT an animal rights activist.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 1 July 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

oh man for about five minutes into reading this thread and the article i thought they were talking about pete SEEGER.

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 18:33 (twenty-one years ago)

how is "benefits the greatest amount of animalkind" an actual feasible standard for making legal and other decisions? does he even begin to suggest a pragmatic framework for implementing such a sweeping idea?

amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 1 July 2004 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Utilitarianism is too close to relativism-by-democracy for me, and that strikes me as dangerous. Not to mention mostly un-workable.

By the way, isn't it already legal for parents to abort an severely disabled child if they so choose, at least back here it is. Yes. But not retroactively.

Note that in the Bill of Rights we have crated an un-democratic citadel of individualism past which democracy must never go. Traditional Christian individualism (imortal soul)has long been a moral bulwark against mere utility but I fear, (especially as an atheistic agnostic)that this will soon no longer be the case. I say 'I fear' because I am attached to the idea of not being 'voted off the island' except for serious crimes and not just for the convenience of the greatest number.

Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 1 July 2004 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It's weird reading this. I came to pretty much the same conclusions myself as a teenager, without having read "Animal Liberation," and not long before arguing the abortion issue with Nat Hentoff. He used the same slippery slope counterargument as some of you guys. If you base rights on the awareness of same, or on the emotions or pain of an individual, then somebody in a vegetable state would lose the right to live.

Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. But entertain, for a moment, the possibility that we've been living out our lives at the bottom of another slippery slope, one that says all human life is sacred and all non-human life is disposable. Cruelty laws don't begin to address the lifelong agony of most farm animals, for instance.

As the article puts it: "When Singer compares severely disabled babies to animals, he seems - out of context - to be insulting the disabled. In fact, he is trying to make us take cows and pigs and dogs far more seriously."

Pete Scholtes, Friday, 2 July 2004 02:57 (twenty-one years ago)

four months pass...
i've been reading a collection of essays by Singer called "Writings on an Ethical Life". Besides the two topics already mentioned he also is very concerned with world poverty. He makes the following argument:

We ought to prevent what is bad when we can do so w/o sacrificing anything of comparable moral signifigance.

From this he concludes that one is morally required to give nearly all of their surplus monies and/or energy to the poor and suffreing in third world countries. Of course, he admits he doesn't even follow this himself, but it remains a provocative argument.

artdamages (artdamages), Thursday, 18 November 2004 10:11 (twenty years ago)

eight years pass...

if you're a teacher, good to remember these every time you read your own student evaluations:

http://critical-theory.com/rate-professor/?utm_source=feedly

Peter Singer is not necessarily a critical theorists, but he is well known in the community as an object of their contempt. Through his defense of utilitarianism, he has received scorn from critical theorists, disability activists, and other animal liberation advocates.

I’m not sure who is more of a douche, Peter Singer or this next commenter.

His inability to comprehend the logic of Chapter 6 of Francione’s “Introduction to Animal Rights” indicates a severe weakness in Singer’s analytical abilities. Perhaps Singer failed logic class. He lacks solid reasoning skills and should be shun (sic)

This next commenter missed a great opportunity for a quality pun like, “He’ll Sing you to sleep,” zing!

He is highly overrated. His ideas are pretty radical but you’d never know because he presents them soooo blandly. Don’t be fooled by the name…Peter Singer will put you to sleep!

I don’t think this next person understands how academia works.

This man does not belong in Academia. Very wierd ideas. Not recommended

j., Tuesday, 10 September 2013 01:31 (eleven years ago)

I remember getting the impression he was talking about animals, using babies as arguments rather than talking about babies by comparing them to animals. But that was a long time ago.

I have gathered no gaudy flowers of speech in other men's gardens (dowd), Tuesday, 10 September 2013 01:45 (eleven years ago)

Animal Liberation so completely convinced me that veganism was the only ethical choice that I gave up on ethics

#fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 September 2013 01:45 (eleven years ago)

it's hard to do at first

you just have to keep reminding yourself about all the suffering you're no longer experiencing by giving it up

j., Tuesday, 10 September 2013 01:49 (eleven years ago)

??

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 10 September 2013 03:29 (eleven years ago)


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