The Most Unforgivable Thing (What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger)

"Although you don't believe me, you are strong
Darkness always comes before the dawn."

I think I'm going to listen to my CD now.

I, personally, don't quite believe that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I did believe it once, thought, to my mistake. Traumas and awful experiences can harden your shell, that's for sure, but that doesn't mean your inside isn't hurting. Besides, I don't think the kinda "strongness" that follows is something that's good for a person, for a human being. It took me years to find out that I'd much rather be "weak" than "strong". And I feel much better now.

But as I said, this has nothing to do with you Kate, it's just my personal experience.

I'm sorry for your relationship ending that way, I wish you all the best. Really.

That said, my own form of denial lasted years and did untold harm. It was deeper than denial, really, more of a willing suppression of everything. But my excuse was that I was just a kid.

Incidentally, and I recognise this is intensely personal and subjective, but the worst thing about rape is the part of you that enjoyed it. That's a mindfuck from some strange, diseased land.

(x-post)

But ontopic, sometimes denial is crucial for survival. Once it's outlived its usefulness, it just leaves.

I'm not saying that I'm "over" the relationship by any means, or that I'm over him (I still love him, that isn't going to change for a while.) But the strong means that I've not fallen to pieces, I'm dealing with it constructively. It's too much anger to carry around, I just don't want to do it. Forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving as much as it is the person who did something wrong.

I'm not afraid to cry, I'm listening to a lot of sad music, and really feeling it, and that's lovely. But mostly I feel relief, because we're not fighting any more.

About the rape... erm, no, there was no part of me that enjoyed it. I was quite drunk and drugged up, and I don't actually remember much about it. I can remember things like the police examination and the investigation much more clearly, and that was actually as traumatic again as the rape was. Letting *go*. Saying "that was really awful, but you know, it didn't kill me" was the important thing. Sometimes letting go, forgetting, not dwelling on it, not freaking out is the best thing you can do. Shrug your shoulders, and say "That sucked. But it's over. Move on."

That's exactly what I mean by being strong. Refusing to carry baggage. It's over. I don't need it any more.

The truth is, that he was not as strong as I thought he was, and I'm not as weak as he thought I was.

If I'd known he wasn't so strong, maybe I'd have treated him differently, not thrown so much of my problems on his back, dealt with it and tried to be stronger myself, or find other ways to deal. I got really lazy with him, I started taking him for granted. I think if he'd known how strong I was underneath the constant flapping and stropping, he'd have stood up and said "Oi! Don't lay this on me! Sort it out yourself!" and not got so bruised.

That's what I'm doing right now.

It never rains, it pours, right?

I will finish out my contract here, but I'm going to be moving on, in so many senses of the word. I'm sick of marketing, I really am. I want to do more maths. How can I combine doing lovely lovely mathematics, with the idea of helping children, (which is the only other thing I love about my job) short of becoming a maths teacher?

Getting older, whenever I have been in relationships people have always got frustrated and angry with me because I won't open up to them and because I seem to be very gaurded about things. But I just can't do it. I don't want to talk about things. I don't feel I need closure.

But I do find that whenever any trauma does happen in my life, my coping mechanism just kicks in, it is like things haven't happen. When people in my family have died for instance I find it really had to show my grief. I can't cry, and that makes me feel bad.

(x-post)

It's weird, because I fuss and fret and totally freak out over the littlest of things, because I can actually control them. When really huge, big things happen, I tend to actually go a bit blank.

Things I can control, I totally freak out over (and I think that really wore down Joe in the end) but things I can't control... phew. Let them go. When people in my family have died, I've just gone kind of blank.

Personally, I have my doubts about 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'.

x-post, Pink OTM.

Ah, good. Now I feel even more fucking alone. Your mention of that particular trauma tripped my empathy is all. I wasn't universalizing, or anything. So, for me, being sexually abused as a kid, one of the worst aspects was the enjoyment factor (hidden among the fear, and confusion, and grossout factors). Maybe with things like that, it doesn't make sense to deal with it at the time. The time to "deal with it" will make itself known.

(Weird, my memory of all this surfaced around 9/11, too.)

Mine was an attack by a stranger, not a child abuse thing or a date rape. They're all very different, and trigger different responses.

Rereading, I can see that you weren't trying to extrapolate. That was just my over-sensitivity and, um, basic paranoia around this whole topic. This isn't something I've actually admitted to many people, and that sense of (subtle) complicity in the situation fucks with my head on a regular basis.

Then, there are other traumatic events I've gotten past, so does this make me strong? Some days I feel strong, others not. And what does "strong" mean in this sense? Plus, which side of the scale does receiving the diagnosis/label "Post Traumatic Stress" add to -- does it validate some stuff, put a few things in perspective by throwing them into relief, or does it become a burden in itself?

Look at all these questions I'm asking. Some are rhetorical, some because I have no idea how to answer them.

Rape by a stranger makes me scared to walk down dark streets alone, it makes me scared of clubbing, it makes me scared of strange men in cars, it makes me scared of taking a taxi. It doesn't really involve any issues of trust, it does involve issues of safety.

Child abuse is usually rape by someone you know and trust really well, it's just a different set of issues. Maybe they're issues which are even worse, because it compromises your most basic safety. I can feel safe in my own room with the door closed and locked. If you were raped by someone you knew, then you don't even feel safe in your friends' home, you might not even feel safe in your own home, I would guess.

I don't *like* lables, but I'm prepared to accept "post-traumatic stress" because that's what they said it was, and it seemed to fit. Labels are helpful if they can identify what is wrong, and point you in the direction of fixing it. But firstly, one size does not fit all, your experiences and reactions *will* vary - see above. Point two, an explanation is not the same as a justification or an excuse. See my entire problems with the mental health profession. (Sometimes it just makes you a victim twice.)

Sometimes "strong" means being strong enough to be able to cry. Strong means being able to admit when you can't cope, and learning what to do when you feel like that.

And labels, sure, for me the whole PTSD thing made sense, all the symptoms were present, etc. I couldn't really deny it, unless I dismissed the entire field of psychology. But like you, I don't have a great deal of trust (ha!) in the mental health profession, so it's not that simple. I agree it can leave you stuck in that grey area of victimhood way too long.

Strong means you can express real emotions, appropriately. I can see that. Unfortunately, like the other David on this thread, I haven't ever really been able to cry directly for myself (hey, I've cried at a thousand movies, though, from Bambi through to Fahrenheit 9/11.), and I always attributed that to my English upbringing, but now I know it was compounded by a long childhood/adolescence dedicated to the repression of traumatic memories! Way to lose all trust in your own ability to recall anything, in your own general responses to harm that comes your way.

xposts, but yeah, this thread should probably have a warning about triggering or Metallica flashbacks or something, ha. Seriously, though, careful. I'm being scarily open here, and I hope I don't regret it.

your advice of forgetting things, of not letting these wounds drag you down, is inspiring, Kate, and I hope I can get to that place sooner rather than later...

I was actually thinking about it myself - Relate do breakup councelling. But then I realised, I've done so much councelling in my life, I only really need a refresher course.

not wishing to pry, but i'm assuming this is infidelity of some kind? or am i just revealing my own insecurities here? (and please tell me if its none of my business)

What makes it really stupid is...

1) I had already made up my mind to institute a no contact/no fight period - he was the one that couldn't stick to it and kept calling me.
2) It didn't actually even work. I still love him. In order to break up that way, I have to actually turn that love into hate, and then let it dissipate, and I just don't have the energy to hate him.

It sucks and it hurts, but I know why he did it, and I have actually forgiven him. Time to move on.

(Plus what Pink says, but you knew that already.)

Do you mean that you can be a happy couple without loving someone? Or does it mean that just because you love someone doesn't mean that you will automatically be happy together?

I think either of those are actually possible.

It's two weeks on from the Last Straw fight. In most ways, my life is getting better all the time, I'm happier, stronger, calmer. I've been hanging out with my friends, and it's been great. A weekend in Cambridge, and seeing and meeting all sorts of lovely men reopened my eyes. No, I promise I'm not going to become a dirty old woman, but really, it was just the realisation of how many more fish there are in the sea, how many attractive, cool, clever guys there are out there in the world, and it's stupid to get hung up on one.

I emailed Joe about the Sonic Boom show tonight, because I got paranoid. I was convinced that there was going to be a worst case scenario of me walking in, and seeing him there with his New Screw. This has happened to me before, and it is the worst thing in the world. I would not be able to keep my cool. Anyway, he emailed back, polite but cold, saying he was in Derby for most of the week. I emailed back and said "please call me when you get back, I need my stuff, and we need to talk, so I can have closure."

Because *this* is what is bugging me. One of my biggest problems with our relationship was that he made all the decisions. Everything from little things like what movie we'd watch, all the way up to the big decisions, like where we would spend Xmas/holidays, where we would live. He would make the decision, then I would be informed of it.

That used to make me feel so powerless. I really hated it. Being powerless made me feel weak and hopeless, and that produced depression. Being powerless made me feel frustrated, and that made me feel angry.

I just feel that by cheating on me, it's yet another Executive Decision that he's made, by himself, and now I have to live with it. You know, I don't even disagree that we should have broken up. But I want it to be *OUR* decision, that both of us made, that I had a say in. Not something that he just did to me.

I still want to go back and have That Talk, that we were going to have after a few weeks of no contact. I don't care if we're already broken up, I don't care if it doesn't change anything. I don't want to row, I don't want to dredge up the past. I just want to feel like I had some say in the decision.

Actually, I think I should email him back and say exactly that.

But knowing how conflict-avoidant he is, I don't think I'll ever get the chance. It just isn't fair.

for what it's worth, i know that the rebound thing doesn't work/seem healthy for you, but it's something that i'm able to do, and it hasn't left me (any more) fucked up. basically, it does work/help/improve the situation for some people. and if he's one of those, then you won't be able to talk him out of it or tell him why it's dangerous or whatever.

I don't know, I find starting a new relationship is often traumatic and stressful, but that's because it's very hard for me to learn to trust a new person.

Even if I know all his reasoning for doing it, that doesn't stop it from bloody hurting. Especially since I perceive this Rebound Fucktoy (rightly or wrongly) as being something which is interfering with either any hopes of recconcilliation or *my* healing process. That makes me very angry, and very hurt.

aww. don't forget, my offer for kicking him in the teeth/stealing his monkeyart still stands...

But I can NOT let go of my hopes for recconcilliation without having this conversation. I know that the chances are slim to none, but I *need* to at least try.

Both on TWX and here you seemed pretty happy it was over, that it was like a scab that neither of you could leave alone.

You're nice, and people like you - hard as it sounds, sometimes you can do that on your own. I know once you feel like you're past being a kid that it's difficult to think of life without a S.O., but it's not that bad.

Personally, I also think taking him to the hostipal is a mistake too unless you're genuinely back together for the right reasons. There are lots of people here willing to go with you, so you needn't be alone.

I'm on my work email if you want to talk more.

It's absolutely impossible to second-guess someone else's reactions in this kind of coversation, however well you know them. Say the things YOU want to say, that's all you have control over and it's going to be important for your dignity and self-esteem when you look back on this - whatever the outcome - that you DID keep control on your end of things.

It's ok to be upset and hurt and angry though. Relationships AREN'T stress-free and people don't have a right to be shielded from the messy stuff, just because they'd rather be.

Hope you get through ok, and with the other stuff too x

No, it's not fear of being alone. I am actually quite happy to be alone (I would *like* to find a life partner, but I can take care of myself perfectly well). In every aspect of my life, I have improved in the past month or so. I love my new band, I'm feeling creatively stimulated. I've been spending quality time with my friends, I love my new house, work is... well, it's tolerable despite all the problems around here lately.

I actually just MISS him.

He's still the first thing I think about when I wake up in the morning, and the last thing I think about when I go to bed at night, because I still turn over and half expect him to be there. Whenever I see an interesting book, I still think "Oh, Joe would really be interested by this, maybe I should get it for him." When I see a cool TV programme, I think "Oh, I bet Joe would like that." When I write a new song, he's the first person I want to play it for. When I discover a cool place or a new walk, I wonder what he would make of it. I miss his green eyes, I miss his doggie noises and his growling in the place of conversation. I miss his endless curiosity, the way that I would come home and find that he'd turned the bedroom into a Camera Obscura or the bathroom into a laboratory.

I think about all the plans we made that we never got to do - movies we planned to see together, Country Houses we were going to visit, meals we were going to eat at various restaurants, the long-discussed trip to NYC for me to show him around. I can't believe that these things are never going to happen now. Yes, most of these things I could do by myself or with a friend, and be fine, but I wanted to do them with *HIM*.

He sometimes accused me of not loving him, because I was never very demonstrative with the Three Little Words, but my god, I just wish now I could tell him all these things

God, I'm crying now, I have to go to the loo and pull myself back together.

This is the most convinced you've sounded about how you feel since this started. I knew you had it in you.

Chin up, kiddo.

Suzy otm with this. I think the most important element here is that you have to really look inside yourself about whether you want to be with him again. On top of that, you need to look at the shitty, painful bits - will you be able to be his girlfriend again without getting upset or bitchy about his rebounds whenever you're stressed or drunk or whatever? Will you be able to deal with the things about him you don't like when they come up again?

If deep down you can answer all these questions honestly and do still want to be with him, that's one thing. But you *can't* have rational, objective feelings right now - we're just not programmed that way. So beware of EVERYTHING you think you're feeling right now, and don't make any quick decisions whatever you do.

On the 1% minimal chance that he would agree to a reconcilliation, I know there's a lot of hard work to be done. We would have to literally rebuild the relationship from the friendship up, establish a friendship, rebuild trust, before progressing to dating. I understand why he doesn't want to go through it. A month ago, I wasn't sure I wanted to go through it. If my anger management doesn't work, if he can't learn to communicate without going into extreme conflict avoidance... it could mean the going through the same amount of pain all over again in months or even weeks.

That's something we could only find out by doing it. I think that I am willing to do that work, if he is, because I think we have something unique that is *worth* saving. I *don't* think he's replaceable with the next bloke to come along.

Sure, I can probably eventually meet someone else, who could be wonderful in their own way. But when something I really value breaks, I would rather do everything within my power to fix it, rather than throw it away and get a new one.

of course you're going to spend some time mourning all the things you liked about him and the things you never got to do, but you'll get through it, and maybe the two of you will get to a point where you can be friends and you can still do some of those things, and it'll be ok.

(normally in this situation, my advice is to try to put your new ex on the 'reserve list', which i find makes it easier to think 'oh, maybe someday we'll get back together and do all those things', but i don't think that would be helpful here, would it?)

putting more stress and pressure onto something might help mend something, but it might also break it. if he doesnt want to have all this closure/reconciliation stuff, you can't force him! it sounds like too much pressure and weight is going to be put on all this, and its certainly not the 'showing him how you can be' you talked out above, is it? isn't this going to just end up being more of the same?

and, the post upthread, snarky or not, still holds true, he knows about ilx, might not he be reading?

I agree with you about the "friendship" stuff, after all, that's what I was saying in the post above. That we would have to start as friends in order to heal, to remind ourselves what we like about each other, etc. But I am *not* able to handle being "just friends" while he runs around screwing other girls, that is just too painful and destructive to me.

I reiterate, he *wants* to talk. In fact, he insisted that we still get together, even after I told him (after finding out about New Screw Two) that I didn't want to talk again. There is stuff that we both need to say/discuss.

I have not actually seen him in exactly three weeks. I know that the sheer physical presence of someone that you have had an intense relationship with can be overwhelming. I hope that I do not get overwhelmed.

Thank you for listening to me today, thanks for the support, and thanks for the advice, even if I decided not to follow it. ;-)

xpost

We talked for about eight or nine hours yesterday. It went really well. It was difficult at times, but I kept my temper and kept my cool, I expressed what I needed to say, he actually opened up and communicated with me, openly, honestly, and told me what I needed (not necessarily what I wanted to hear, but what I *needed* to hear).

I am proud of myself for keeping my temper and not breaking down (despite lack of sleep, despite PMS, despite everything that was against me, I stayed cool) and I feel like I have proved something to myself.

In fact, if anyone broke down, it was Joe, who cried his eyes out, and at one point picked up my diary and started rubbing his forehead against it "because it has your thoughts in it". (It may sound stupid in the retelling, but it was actually beautiful.)

It was very powerful for both of us, I think. Even though he was skeptical at first and was all "I'm doing this for you, not for me" - I do think that he ended up getting a lot out of it, too.

It did hurt, because the connection between us *is* still there, it is still very powerful. But it also felt good, just seeing him, just being with each other. The intellectual affinity is still there, the emotional intimacy, even the physical. (He did kept saying how great I looked, how much weight I'd lost.)

We talked and talked, until we finally reached an understanding, and it turned out that we did actually eventually agree on almost everything. He answered every question except Number 3, that was the only thing he would not answer directly. He got very defensive, and said "I can't answer this, because I feel like you are trying to get back together." I replied "Well, yes, cards on the table for both of us, I don't even want to go back to the hell we were in, but I do still love you, very much." He started crying, and kept repeating "I am going out with someone else now" and wouldn't answer, and just said "please don't ask me this." I don't know why, that's something I just don't know - if doesn't want to be asked because he knows for certain that the answer is no, or if he is terrified that his heart really wants to say yes.

(To get off topic, he did actually come out and agree with me that yes, this was a rebound in all the ways that I described and worried about, but it's something that he seems to want to do anyway. Though, to me, it's telling that the song he is walking around singing in his heart is *my* song.)

His answer, his ultimate answer as to what was the deal-breaker, and why we broke up... he didn't want to tell me, because he thought it would hurt me, and he broke down and cried when he told me that yes, he had actually very seriously considered marrying me. But that he knew that we wanted children, and he thought that my anger, my explosions, my inability to control my rage, would mean that I would be a poor parent.

I wasn't actually angry, I wasn't even hurt. Because deep down, in some way, I actually agreed with him. I mean, that is one of the biggest reasons that I am trying to do anger management at the moment, is because I am sick of hurting the people that I love with my rage.

I wish that he had told me sooner, so I could have done something about it earlier. But in a weird way, I am actually glad that he didn't. Because, had that happened, the decision to do something about my rage would have felt like something that he made me do, rather than a decision that I made myself. It's better this way, and it's more likely to stick, because this *is* a decision that I've made myself. It's something I don't like in myself, it's something that I *want* to change, and I *can* change.

And I swear, right now, with god/ILX/whatever as my witness, that I will do something about this. Even if I never win Joe back, I will do something about this, because I am *never* going to allow my rage to hurt someone else that I love.

Anyway, we didn't come to a decision on number 7. We're both going to take some time and think about things. I flip-flop back and forth between thinking "I love him, I can change, I *will* change, and I will win him back by being the person that I was yesterday, the person that he loves" and thinking "Let it go, put him out of your life for the weeks, months, even years that it will take for you to get over him."

Either way, I kept my dignity, and I got the answers that I needed. If he is The One, then he will come back to me. If he does not come back to me, then he is not The One.

Like I said, when I say that he still loves me... I don't think I'm imagining or projecting it.

x-post, OK, cool, PiX0r!

I'm sorry to be so mean and so spiteful, but that doesn't sound healthy to me. That's not love, that's denial and avoidance. And something that unhealthy, it can not last.

I know it's not my business, but it makes me feel ... something, to know that.

I am a big ball of conflicting emotions. Still. I mean, I feel a *lot* better, because I have the answers that I need. But I still can't keep down the odd combination of hopefullness/yearning because I *do* still think there's a chance, and the grief/pain that it could really be over, done with, forever.

It really is over.

Oh god.

< comforting hug down the wires >

(um, that's really not gonna come thru as i intended, will it?)

lecture over, hang in there :-)

To clarify, I rang Joe on Friday and we had a massive row. I don't want to go into details, but on Thursday, I remembered all the reasons that I loved him, and on Friday I remembered all the reasons that I hated him and the reasons we couldn't be together. I had spent weeks beating myself up and wondering what *I* did wrong, and then that day, it all came back in a rush, everything that was wrong with *him*.

We talked to each other a few hours later, when we'd calmed down and were both more rational. Yes, we loved/still love each other immensely, and we have a lot in common, but on the really big, important things (like the ability to accept that another person is not wrong, they are just different) we are totally incompatible. No matter how much we love each other, it doesn't work, and we are only causing each other more pain.

I *know* this intellectually. It will just take me a long time for my heart to catch up. I have a long grief process to go through right now, and that is very painful.

The first one was with regards to Joe and I remaining friends. And the first half (the current situation) of it was very ambivalent, (some positive, some negative cards) but the second half (result) was The Hermit, followed by the Strife and Ruin and lots of swords cards. That is pretty obvious to me what that means.

Then, on impulse I did another reading with regards to Joe and I still loving each other. Lots of great cards came up there, no swords at all. The card Love, references to success and material gain, references to art and work, even The Wheel of Fortune. I was trying to figure it out, and I kept thinking "that can't be right. There's no way we can be lovers again." And then it hit me. I've been writing a *lot* of songs about Joe over the past few months. That is the ultimate expression of my love for him, to write about him. The message that I get from that reading is that I should channel the love that I feel for Joe into my work - into my music - and that that will bring me success.

That's an interpretation that makes me feel strong, and I like it, so I'm going with that one.

Take all the love and the emotion and channel it into my music, that is what I shall do.

(p.s. lemme know if you want to come to a drunken night out on saturday!)

On a personal level I am desperately sorry for all the neurotic nonsense I spurted out when last we were communicating on ILx. This was at a time when my own "relationship" was falling apart and I was having difficulty dealing with anything. Had to take a break; it was the only way to keep sane - so I didn't really know anything about this until I read the above just now, and I was pretty shocked and stunned to read it.

Like I said on the email I've just sent you; if you fancy doing a bit of Saturday lunchtime record shopping again soon, or anything else for that matter, just let me know. Maybe I'm the last person you want to talk to at the moment, and I've no one except myself to blame for that, but it would be nice to catch up. I'd like us to be friends again...life's too short not to be. Pretty please? :-)

Something similar happened to me some time ago and I was devastated also - I thought I'd never get over it. But I decided to do what you're now doing and found strengths and qualities I never realised I had. About six months down the line, I got back with the man who broke my heart but it was reborn on new and sturdier foundations.

I didn't make the changes to win him back, but I was able to make more reasonable, healthy decisions about my future with him and managed to iron out quite a few kinks in the process.

He later said that he admired my strength and determination to get on with my life and began to think more seriously about what he'd lost and how best he might salvage the relationship. (He also did quite a bit of work too.)

Best of luck.

Know that we haven't spoken for eons, but I'd just asked Pink about you the other day. (She directed me here; cheers, P!) To go on, it's wretched that you had to go through this at all. However, you handled the dreaded conversations pretty well. Grief is a rough stage to handle, especially when it concerns a person you loved so completely.

That said, I think you've been doing the right things in telling him how his leaving made you feel (as the others said): the first step to beginning to heal is purging your hurt and anger. However, don't fall into the guilt trap of thinking this situation is entirely your fault---rationally, you know tis not.

Your music has always been your saving grace: pour everything you feel into it. At my lowest, I've been able to wrap music around my heart like a comforting hug. (Not the best imagery, but I hope you get what I'm saying.)

It's good that you're trying to get a grip on your anger; when you're ready to risk again, both you and Lucky Chap # 3 will be the better for it.

Ditto on the comfort zone: always room in my Inbox for you, otherwise my AIM is usually on.

Wish I could do more right now, but distance is a bitch:<

you sound like a robust, determined person though, so im sure youll pull through.