can you forgive ppl for saying/doing REALLY stupid shit if they were drunk when it happened? Where d'you draw the line?

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Some time ago there was a short discussion on ILM of that famed Elvis Costello incident: you know the story, young Elvis gets shitfaced w/ aging hippie rockers, calls Ray Charles a "blind, ignorant nigger" to provoke them, spends ample time thereafter trying to convince everyone that no, he's not a racist and that he just said something rilly rilly stupid while he was drunk. Some of the ppl on that thread maintained that this made Costello a racist, pointing out that they'd never say something like that while drunk...I was gonna post a new thread on ILE to discuss this approach, but I never got around to it...anyway, the subject's sprung up again on ILM, so I thought I'd do so now:

No one I've gotten drunk with has ever made racist remarks, but I have seen ppl that I like and respect say extremley reprehensible things, certainly statements that, if they had expressed them while sober, would have cost them my friendship. It hasn't happened to me yet, but then I'm pretty new at this game, and thinking back on some occasions, I can certainly remember having very rude and stupid thoughts, and the fact that I didn't express them is surely down to sheer luck on my side. So Elvis Costello still being condemned by ppl for one deplorable statement made under the influence decades ago makes me quite uncomfortable, because I sure as hell don't like the idea of being held responsible for the rest of my life for everything I might have said (or may say in the future) while under the influence.

Elvis C. aside, where do *you* draw the line? What's the worst thing you've forgiven? Was there ever something that you COULDN'T forgive? Do you think that drunken outbursts always have something to do with stuff that the person's bottled up inside, as pop culture is fond of depicting it? Plz discuss.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 24 July 2004 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the thing that absolves EC is not that he was drunk so much as the fact that he was saying it as a deliberately outrageous thing to provoke people, rather than anything he actually believed.

I forgive friends who are aggressive drunks and get all "you're all wankers, you all hate me" because it's about insecurity. I forgive friends who get lecherous when drunk, though when it happens too often, I get pissed off and try to pluck up courage to have a word with them about it when they're sober. I can't imagine anyone I know coming out with vile social attitudes when drunk. I think they would have to come from somewhere, unless they were just being said, Costello-style, to shock.

― Alba (Alba), Saturday, 24 July 2004 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of people say mean, insulting shit drunk and even then know that it's wrong. They use their drunkeness as an excuse for their behavior when it wasn't actually the cause of their behavior; they were just being assholes. I see that sort of thing happening way way more often than drink honestly causing people to do/say bad things.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Saturday, 24 July 2004 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

What Alba said is right I think - E.costello is forgiveable cos what he said etc, what she(? or he) said. 'E.costello' is like 'E.coli'?

It's kind of like, you can forgive people for saying horrible things when they're drunk (so long as it's not some revelation like, yeah I actually think rape is a good thing or something) but you can be annoyed with them for getting drunk in the first place. Maybe. I don't know, it's a really good question I think. What about drunk drivers who kill people, etc etc. And then it can become this whole bigger question like, yeah well what about people who were brought up badly, isn't that an excuse for bad behaviour too. And so on. Where does fate end and bla bla bla. I suppose that's why this question is so hard to answer. And yet it's vital that it be answered, for instance, by people who are in relationships with drunks.

― m, Sunday, 25 July 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

was he pissed when he sang 'oliver's army' too?

― piscesboy, Sunday, 25 July 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Was Lennon pissed when he sang 'Woman is the Nigger of the World'? It's all about context, innit? Not that you couldn't make an argument that white people shouldn't use the word at all, but y'know.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 25 July 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

lennon was making an anaology about the sordid state of the world. e.c. was insulting someone (who was ten times the musician he could ever be.) v. different.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Sunday, 25 July 2004 06:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Sam, I think Alba mentioned Lennon because pisceboy mentioned "Oliver's Army", where EC uses the term "white nigger", and not as a comparsion for tha Drunk Incident.

(this came up in the other discussion too and my take on it is still that the narrator of "Oliver's Army" is quite clearly supposed to be a despicable individual.)

Yeah. I also think there's this romanticising of the "drunken outburst", you know, it's the best way to make a scene with *style*. So I can see it as a calculated thing, like someone who's already depressed and disgruntled and angry about the world around him could go "well, time to get drunk, this way I can tell 'em all off w/o getting in trouble for it!"

Yeah, that's the standard reaction, BUT surely sometimes it can't be adequate punishment for the level of bad behaviour coming from the drunk person? As in, it's well and good to scold 'em for getting drunk, but can the same punishment used w/r/t to, say, someone who's gotten a bit tipsy and accidentally broke your favourite glass really tackle someone who's just thrown some incredibly low insult at you?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 25 July 2004 08:21 (twenty-one years ago)

(as an aside, I searched the archives for "drunk" before posting this thread to make sure that we hadn't Already Done This, and....wow.)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 25 July 2004 08:22 (twenty-one years ago)

In my experience no one says or does things *just because* they're drunk. I'm not saying every drunken outburst is a release of bottled up emotions, often it's just people acting more irritating than they do sober, but no one ever turns into her/his exact opposite because of drinking.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 25 July 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I find the people you forgive for drunken nastiness are generally the same ones who refuse to forgive you for lesser crimes....shitheads.

― Every. Second. Post. (ipsofacto), Sunday, 25 July 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I cannot forgive people who drive when they are drunk. It is always hanging around when I see them driving, or out drinking.

I've never heard a drunken abusive outburst from a person that I can't imagine saying the exact same things sober. But I live a very sheltered life.

― isadora (isadora), Sunday, 25 July 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I figure if you get drunk and say something stupid, it's forgiveable maybe the first time, but you should learn from the mistake and maybe not get so drunk in the future. But then again, I don't get drunk at all, so I'm less sympathetic than most.

― Maria (Maria), Monday, 26 July 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)

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