"the Hunt for Osama bin Laden"

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where's all the spy shit? Why are we blowing up towns - in IRAQ - and putting razorwire around them and fucking with everyone? i mean, COLD WAR'S OVER, GUYS - we need some new derring-do - more Prague promenades (we DID keep tabs on that guy in Prague, actually, who turned out to be.. an airport greeter with the same name as the guy we actually wanted, so maybe less of those, actually) Can anybody remember the arguments against treating 9/11 as some top-flite spy shit? granted it's a problem to coordinate (i can't remember the last time i heard about Interpol busting somebody) but um, so is this

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think spy shit is too much like detective work, and detective work is law enforcement, and this is a war dammit! (The obsessive "this-isn't-law-enforcement-it's-a-war!" line is one of the odder right-wing mantras of the last few years. It's like they think there's something wrong with law enforcement.)

Also, as we have learned, nobody in the CIA can speak Arabic.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:29 (twenty-one years ago)

spittle this is exactly my question. i've heard the mantra too but oddly can't recall any of the reasoning behind it. thanks though.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

the reasoning behind it: even the GOP knows the FBI is incompetent.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow, I thought this was going to be about the next Tom Clancy movie.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"the aim is not to acquire territory, as was the case in 'old wars,' but to gain political power through generating fear and hatred. War itself is a form of political mobilisation in which the experience of violence promotes extremist causes." - Mary Kaldor and David Held, "New War, New Justice," September 28, 2001

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

"there must be no holding back, no compromise, no hesitation in confronting this menace, in attacking it wherever and whenever we can and in defeating it utterly" - Tony Blair, November 20, 2003

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

The beheadings add a wrenching twist to the whole trend of violence "going private" (especially given that most - all? - have been threatened or carried out against contractors or other civilians)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Tracer Hand is such a badass spy name too!

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm perceiving this thread as a variation on Canibus' "Draft Me."

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps the whole essence of this is that to win the war on terrorism, you can not truly fight fire with fire.

Girolamo Savonarola, Wednesday, 28 July 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Water would work better. Hell, playing the kazoo would work better.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 23:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, a truly Neroian approach!

Girolamo Savonarola, Wednesday, 28 July 2004 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...
Okay so this thread title sucks. But the theme keeps coming back. Cheney nows says, as you all know, that "it's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on November 2nd, we make the right choice. Because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again.

"That we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war."

So his argument against Kerry is that Kerry sees terrorism as a criminal act, rather than an act of war. First of all, I doubt Kerry believes that, because "war on terror" has become the dominant metaphor that all right-thinking people believe in. But haven't events shown national army mobilization to be exactly the wrong response? A cold-war military apparatus responding to box cutters? Shouldn't phone tapping, sneaking around, and creative diplomacy be the main M.O. for this struggle?

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

It's just manipulative, Orwellian claptrap on Cheney's part.....his main priority being to keep America in a state of paniced paralysis. DON'T ROCK THE BOAT! STAY THE COURSE! DON'T SWITCH HORSES IN MID-STREAM! (sorry, mixing my metaphors there). I'm not saying we're not going to get hit again, but to amp up the rhetoric right before the election seems so crass and transparent.

Fucking sickening.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)

another terrorist attack on American soil - at some indeterminate point in the future, at some indeterminate location, of some indeterminate amount of damage and lives lost - is an inevitability no matter who is president, no matter whether we call what we're doing a "war on terror" or not.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Stence otm.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's investigative background might come in handy.

Similar points made by military affairs analyst William Arkin: Five Big American Blunders in Terror War.

youn, Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

could you post that? I'm not registered at the LA Times site, but I'd like to read it.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

DON'T SWITCH HORSES IN MID-STREAM!

Another metaphor, although not a recognized cliche, could be .. Someone drove the car into a ditch, and now we're stuck. Maybe he should move over so someone else can drive.

dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again

So who was in power last time you were hit...?

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Or: time to bring in the relief pitcher.

I share the outrage over Cheney's statement. But his administration's obsessive insistence that terrorism isn't crime is just baffling.

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

basically i want it all to be a bit more "The Grid"

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

[article deleted after youn realised it might well be violating copyright - Martin Skidmore]

youn, Wednesday, 8 September 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't say classify the omission as a blunder on Mr. Arkin's behalf.

When the The Carlyle Group and/or the Military-Industrial Complex wanted a forward position in the Middle East, it first set up shoppe in Saudi Arabia. When it became untenable to maintain its forward positions there (see: 9/11), the TCG/MIC went with the next best thing: Iraq.

"...America no longer needs Saudi Arabia militarily and oil from Iraq and the Caspian Sea will eventually reduce Saudi influence in Opec..."

nader (nader), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 23:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Choice A: Follow the so-called "Bush Doctrine"
Choice B:

nader (nader), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Follow the money

nader (nader), Wednesday, 8 September 2004 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Look, I think a lot of us agree that defining the struggle against al-Qaeda as a "war" is just cover for US aggression in unrelated theatres. But how do the neocons justify it? They must have some argument to back up their conviction that terrorism can be warred against.

Even if gargantuan stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons were found in Iraq marked with first-class postage to al-Qaeda, what would be accomplished by sending in the Marines aside from forcing those weapons even farther into the unaccountable black market underground than they are already, or even provoking their use?

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 September 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Although my prior to previous post was perhaps a bit in jest...seriously: who stands to gain from waging a traditional war against an elusive, nation-less enemy?

Those right on the right side of the aisle will drape any number of quixotic (noble?) reasons over Iraq, but the fact remains that the only building protected upon the arrival of US forces in Baghdad remains the Ministry of Oil.

2+2=5

the rain drop the rain drops (nader), Thursday, 9 September 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's who stands to gain before, during, and after:
The Perpetual War Portfolio

nader (nader), Thursday, 9 September 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

What Case Would Wolfowitz Make

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 September 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

DON'T SWITCH HORSES IN MID-STREAM!

or even better

"DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!" - Ghostbusters

joseph pot (STINKORâ„¢), Thursday, 9 September 2004 01:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you people listening? Or are you just as lazy as I am?

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 September 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

No, you're lazier.

The neocon perspective is not that the war on terror can be waged in a traditional (i.e., tanks and troops) manner. The neocon perspective is that the war on terror must be waged in a traditional manner: the only way to teach, as George W. Bush so eloquently put it, "...Muslim, or perhaps brown-skinned" people autonomy and freedom (i.e., democracy and Christianity) is through force.

The "enemies [of the US] cannot be negotiated with...[the US] has to win militarily, and decisively so...[because] Arab cultures despise weakness in an adversary above all."

Among the smoked and mirrored reason(s) Wolfowitz, Perle, et al would give you is that, "the world consists of a permanent struggle between the forces of good and evil, light and dark (an idea which incidentally accords very well both with the thinking of the Christian Right, not to mention of Bush himself)."

It doesn't matter that we can't win the "war on terror" the way we're waging it - efficacy is not a bone neocons or Christian fundamentalists wish to pick. As long as it appears we (good) are not weak in the face of evil, and "those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world" - that's good enough for the ideologies of the present administration and its neo-conservative cabal.

Overly simplistic, easily digested and wholly unsatisfying, no?

nader (nader), Thursday, 9 September 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

but what about Afghanistan? That wasn't "waged in a traditional (i.e., tanks and troops) manner."

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 9 September 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

it was waged in the even older tradition of bribing local warlords to do the fighting for us!

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 September 2004 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

plus special ops guys with beards, don't forget.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 9 September 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's not forget the bombing of wedding parties tradition - popular in both Afghanistan and Iraq

Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 9 September 2004 13:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Unless one is an ardent pacifist one will see as most countries did, including a significant percentage of populations of so-called Muslim nations, that the war in Afghanistan was justifiable retaliation for 9/11.

Or perhaps I'm not following you? Putting large numbers of troops/vehicles on the ground in Afghanistan was unnecessary (particularly after extensive bombing campaigns) b/c the U.S. wasn't fighting a standing army.

When I say "traditional" I'm thinking U.S. armed forces (up to and including special ops) whereas to be truly effective against an organization/ideology like AQ, one might be better fighting a covert war - unfortunately the type that doesn't make for very good cable news fodder, and therefore doesn't give one re-election campagin footage.

nader (nader), Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:16 (twenty-one years ago)

actually it sounds well cool (they can show some matrix type dude bashing away at the computer and then it shows the terrorists getting arrested from a hidden camera! mission accomplished!)

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)

But can nations fight covert wars? I think you can see the discrepancy in the release of information on captured terrorists or warnings about potential attacks. Full disclosure ruins leads and upsets allied intelligence agencies, but people need access to information to judge the severity of threats and to make sure the administration isn't scaremongering.

youn, Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

ah I think it's just a misunderstanding then. Because I don't equate special ops stuff with "traditional" combat. Also, given what reports come out of Afghanistan these days, I'm not sure if this:

"Putting large numbers of troops/vehicles on the ground in Afghanistan was unnecessary (particularly after extensive bombing campaigns) b/c the U.S. wasn't fighting a standing army."

is true. Kabul seems like the only halfway "safe" place in the country, due to the presence of international troops, and as we all know it's not particularly safe. Also I'm not sure that the Taliban didn't consist of something approximating a standing army, if not a bit rag-tag (should that make a huge difference?). I dunno.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

If a nation chooses to fight in a traditional (i.e. armed forces) manner, then no, it certainly can't be covert. It's very difficult to hide an M1 Abrams.

However, full disclosure among nations can remain covert minus loose lips. In other words, if intelligence agents act responsibly, we'll never know about it or we'll only know about it when we need to so as to not compromise existing operations.

To your point, I feel it is wholly irresponsible of the Bush admin. or any admin. to release terrorist capture information or raising and lowering the Homeland Security code. Again, it makes for good TV, but for lousy, long-term efficacy.

Note, too, that DHS announcements "coincidentally" come at politically sensitive times (see the 'terror' warning Ashcroft but Ridge didn't know about soon (if not immediately) after Kerry's selection of Edwards as his running mate).

At present the terror war is about getting Bush re-elected and whatever his admin. can do to convince you (like appearing on TV often) that he's not only waging it, but waging it effectively, it matters not just how (in)effective he is.

nader (nader), Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:40 (twenty-one years ago)

And to htencil's point: I'm not at all hinting that what we did in Afghanistan was right. It was a (neo)conservative estimate of what the US could do to quickly topple the Taliban (while cameras were rolling) and once they marginalized it (however temporarily), move on to Iraq.

Afghanistan is a mess of unfinished business. The US wasn't done doing its job (per its responsibities according to the Geneva Conventions) - and as many Afghanis outside Kabul will readily attest - but hell will freeze over before the (U.S.) troops necessary to ensure stability, free & fair elections, and a dent in the opium trade will arrive.

US armed forces are spread too thin in Iraq (oil) and as a result Afghanistan (no oil), as a nation, is all but forgotten.

nader (nader), Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

However, full disclosure among nations can remain covert minus loose lips. In other words, if intelligence agents act responsibly, we'll never know about it or we'll only know about it when we need to so as to not compromise existing operations.

If the intelligence community isn't held accountable and if the public isn't aware of actions based on that intelligence, it seems like there could be problems: reliability of sources (cf. Chalabi), pre-emptive action that the public might not support (cf., plans for regime change in Iran, Syria...), etc. On the other hand, maybe this is the way foreign policy is conducted now, and we only become aware of it through abuses or failures.

youn, Thursday, 9 September 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm of the mind that the only way you can win the "War on Terra" is by a massive foreign aid drive. Unfortunately with some of the governments in the mid-east such as Egypy and the Saudis, etc it'd be near impossible to implement from the top down, but still. I think in order for this whole thing to reach a stand down is for the Americans to (at the absolute least) pretend like they care about the inequalities that exist in the global equations, do something about the large amounts of angry, uneducated and jobless young men who are signing up to be terrorists, and finally try to temper support of Israel. I dont think rolling into Baghdad with the first infantry division or dropping smart bombs on Kabul is going to help the root of the problem.

bill stevens (bscrubbins), Thursday, 9 September 2004 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

a lot of these countries already do get tons of foreign aid (I believe Egypt is right up with Israel in amount of US government-supplied foreign aid). More money isn't exactly the problem, because there's already plenty there. The problem is the governments and public institutions in place in those countries, but obv. top-down "democracy" as imposed by the US may not solve that problem.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 9 September 2004 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

So if, in the wake of Belsan, the Russians decided to re-invade Afghanistan or maybe go after Al-Qaeda directly in Pakistan then the USA will sit back and cheer them on? I am thinking - no.

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 10 September 2004 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...
And, according to Iranians I trust, Osama bin Laden finally departed this world in mid-December. The al Qaeda leader died of kidney failure and was buried in Iran, where he had spent most of his time since the destruction of al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090808.asp

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Monday, 9 January 2006 21:40 (twenty years ago)

It's Michael "Chalabi is a Wonderful Human Being" Ledeen = I trust him not at all.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 9 January 2006 21:54 (twenty years ago)

Kidney failure? He's only 48 years old and probably gets some degree of good medical care from his supporters. I just don't buy that he would die of kidney failure.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 9 January 2006 21:58 (twenty years ago)

well who knows what living in a cave for four years does to one's body?

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 9 January 2006 23:47 (twenty years ago)

It's common knowledge he's hiding in Western China with the Uighurs, who protect him from capture.

I read that article in the new Vanity Fair about the 'real' Osama and close friends said he was really into western movies and Bruce Lee as a youth. He actually visited the US once, bringing his oldest son for medical treatment.

andy ---, Monday, 9 January 2006 23:51 (twenty years ago)

Don't forget...

http://www.krysstal.com/images/club_arsenal.gif

Masked Gazza, Monday, 9 January 2006 23:54 (twenty years ago)

i guess i got what i asked for with the "spy" shit.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 9 January 2006 23:55 (twenty years ago)


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