Ironic Homophobia in America: On the increase?

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i noticed this on the rise in the last couple of years, and asked a question about it on another board recently. i was told, however, that this was not the case, and that, quite rightly, i should't have extrapolated from personal experience or magazines/articles where such things might be seen. So, i have decided to ask this question on a number of different internet boards, in order to ascertain the perspectives of boards with different political bents.

So, i wonder, what do the people of this board say? is it on the increase? and if so, why? and, if not, is there a reason i could have got the picture wrong?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:48 (twenty years ago)

Ironic homophobia? Example plz.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:51 (twenty years ago)

What like when someone says 'omg that movie was sooo gay'?

― Ooooh Heaven is a Place on Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:52 (twenty years ago)

I don't see that as ironic. That context implies gay = bad/gay movie = bad movie.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:56 (twenty years ago)

It's the closest thing I can think of. Thanks to Alanis Morissette, irony doesn't bloody mean anything anymore. 'Ow, I broke my toe. That's sooo ironic. Like, because I hate braking my toe, and I just broke it.'

― Ooooh Heaven is a Place on Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:57 (twenty years ago)

I've seen a lot of ironic homosexuality, but not much ironic homophobia.

I've seen more and more guys slapping each others butts, I mean, the entire Jackass phenomonenon. althought that's pretty much straight up homosexual.

My friends and I do the ironic homophobia thing all the time. Every time I call a friend I say "How the hell are you you god damned heathen faggot?" Which works best because he's gay. But we do the racism one too, and say "nigger-lover" and they always call me "filthy jew" as I am one of those!

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:03 (twenty years ago)

I have nothing to add to this thread because I don't really get what "ironic homophobia" is supposed to be (though I think this is partly because I was born without the "irony" gene), but I do wish to say that thanks to Adam's new posting ID, I've got that Belinda Carlisle song stuck in my head. Gee, thanks a lot.

"Ooh, baby do you know what that's worth? Ooh, heaven is a place on Earth! They say in heaven, love comes first! We'll make heaven a place on Earth! Ooh, heaven is a place on Eaaaarth!"

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:23 (twenty years ago)

I've recently found myself describing things I dislike as being "gay" with uncommon frequency, so maybe ironic homophobia is on the rise in myself. But I have an admittedly immature foundness for anti-PC transgressions in general.

It's interesting you ask the question though since I've noticed recently that American television has many successful shows which basically propogate annoying gay stereotypes (Will and Grace, Queer Eye) which could lead to some kind of cultural backlash. Ann Coulter made a quip sometime earlier this year that attributed the success of the family sitcom "Everybody Loves Raymond" to the fact that "every other show on television is about gay men." Of course she's crazy but quite popular and I asked myself if this statement of hers was indicative of some kind of cultural trend.

― herbert hebert (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:26 (twenty years ago)

But how does she explain the fact that Ray Ramano is the most flamingly gay man on TV currently?

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:31 (twenty years ago)

x-post
I was just about to comment on that. I loved that song when I was like 8. Also "I Get Weak" which I just heard the other day on VH1C. Especially the "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII get weak" chorus, awesome.

We NOW return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:31 (twenty years ago)

herbert otm

and who cares

when Wifey makes bad jokes I call her a corny faggot-ass beeyotch. and i'll never, ever stop.

"Cicrle in the Sand" ownz, fellas

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:33 (twenty years ago)

I'll have to download that. I forget how it goes.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:35 (twenty years ago)

(Oh, I adore "I Get Weak". And "Circle in the Sand". And the thus-far unmentioned "Mad About You". Okay, I'll stop before this turns into a BC-centric thread.)

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:44 (twenty years ago)

I like I Get Weak, Mad About, Heaven is, but circle in the sand strikes me as somewhat gay.

― herbert hebert (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:47 (twenty years ago)

Um, I'm just a dumb foreigner, but I've always thought that saying something is "sooo gay" merely implies that it has "gay" qualities (whatever they are) instead of being an explicitly negative comment. Am I wrong in thinking like this?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:53 (twenty years ago)

yep. i was watching this horrible movie Cabin Fever the other night, and anything that would formerly be considered 'square,' 'lame,' or even 'wack' was 'gay' to the teenagers

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 06:57 (twenty years ago)

To say that it's "on the rise" is absurd. I remember how we'd use "gay" as a pejorative back in 1989 (third grade): "oh this spelling test is going to be so 'gay,' " etc . Or maybe that was just my suburban pennsylvanian hamlet for you.

― Vic (Vic), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:03 (twenty years ago)

It's pretty gay that people don't say "square" any more.

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:05 (twenty years ago)

maybe you should substitute "pejorative" for negative adjective, up there. its use has/d _nothing_ to do with "homosexual" qualities, as Tuomas suggested above, but just the gay = bad / something "gay" = something bad that Aaron first brought up at start of thread

― Vic (Vic), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:06 (twenty years ago)

i say 'square' - it sounds better than 'gay,' which, as an insult / derogatory term, is totally weak. David Sedaris, Dan Savage, Francis Bacon...?? All VERY cool.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:07 (twenty years ago)

I've always taken and seen used by others that the word "gay" means "lame" in comparison to it meaning "homosexual" as much as it means "homosexual" in comparison to meaning "cheerful."

it's just a word with many meanings and context is considered when considering which one it is.

"what a delightfully gay afternoon that was"
"that was such a gay afternoon"

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:18 (twenty years ago)

this does have it's roots in homophobia though, and is offensive to some for that reason.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:22 (twenty years ago)

not anyone sensible / rational tho

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:31 (twenty years ago)

people who get 'offended' = gay

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:31 (twenty years ago)

On a somewhat related topic, I kind of like it when offensive words or offensive uses of words become used more freely if it lessens their offensiveness.

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:42 (twenty years ago)

like bitch! i never get offended by that anymore. sorry i'll get outta here with my sarcasm now.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:48 (twenty years ago)

not anyone sensible / rational tho
-- roger adultery (vlad62...), July 28th, 2004.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Imagine using the phrase 'that's so black' or 'that's so jewish' to describe something that's crap. Now tell me it isn't offensive.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 07:56 (twenty years ago)

the only person i know who uses the word 'gay' regularly as a perjorative term works for Vice Magazine.

*runs away*

― stevie (stevie), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:05 (twenty years ago)

Herbert, completely right about Queer Eye, btw. When did it become okay for poofters (note use of ironic homophobia..) to act as performing clowns for the straight world. That sort of crap should have gone out with John Inman and Larry Grayson. Now we have Graham Norton and Queer Eye trumpeted as some kind of 'new tolerance'. Bollocks. Its more of the same.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:05 (twenty years ago)

i agree about 'Circle In The Sand'

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:10 (twenty years ago)

Could there be comparison made to how, in the past, black American musicians had to act like clowns in order to appear non-threatening?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:11 (twenty years ago)

Queer Eye

And the mass appeal of that show is really more in the catty comments and backhanded "ooh you GO girl" encouragement to the philistine "straight guy" than in any of the valuable design/cooking/etiquette advice the panel offers.

― Maneating Leopards of India (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:11 (twenty years ago)

My favourite thing about Queer Eye is the fact that Rivers Cuomo is offering cookery advice on it.

Anyway, nowadays the kids are spelling it "ghey" when used as an insult.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:20 (twenty years ago)

anyone know the origin of how the terms 'gay' and 'queer' came to be used to 'describe' homosexuals?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:21 (twenty years ago)

Queer is rather easy to explain, isn't it, because from the heteronormative point of view homosexuality is "queer". It's also an older term for homosexuals than "gay", which became popular only in the 20th century. I don't know about the origins of "gay", though.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:28 (twenty years ago)

The Gay Liberation Front appropriated Gay in the 1960s (possibly the early 70s, actually).

'Its such a lovely old word...such a shame.'

Queer - I think that's down to Peter Tatchell - the re-appropriation, at least.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:29 (twenty years ago)

But "gay" was used in reference to homosexuals way before the sixties, though maybe not in mainstream culture.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:31 (twenty years ago)

For example, it is suggested that Cary Grant knew the alternative meaning of "gay" when he said "I turned gay all of a sudden" in that forties flick (can't recall the title), which makes the joke doubly funny.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:33 (twenty years ago)

the word gay and it's quaintness, even tweeness, suggests to me that the re-re-appropriation of it in recent times to mean 'lame' and 'weak' may not correlate directly with homophobia - tho there is still a connection i guess

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:39 (twenty years ago)

Personally, I prefer the word to any of the alternatives. 'Homosexual' sounds so clinical. 'Queer' is pretty angular and harsh.

But then, I'll admit to being just a little bit twee. Just a little bit, mind..

Steve, though it may not correlate directly with homophobia, that's still where it is rooted. If people use twee words, why not 'pretty' or 'shiney' or 'lalala'? (Suddenly I'm stuck for twee words - what words are twee??)

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:43 (twenty years ago)

something about the single syllable makes it more appealing

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:47 (twenty years ago)

this thread is about jon williams, isn't it?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 14:32 (twenty years ago)

when i first heard people saying "that's so gay" to describe somethin sucking, it immediately put me off. like hobart said

Imagine using the phrase 'that's so black' or 'that's so jewish' to describe something that's crap. Now tell me it isn't offensive

spelling it "ghey" is the new "kewl". everyone knows what you mean. it's just perpetuating a problem and making it acceptable to use that sort of language. I've got no problem calling something that's legitimately gay (even sterotypically so) gay, but using it simply to describe something bad just seems wrong.

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 15:48 (twenty years ago)

Newcastle aside - where is the gayest place in the UK?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 15:52 (twenty years ago)

right or not, the people i know who occasionally use the word gay as a insult seem to view it as entirely removed from connoting homosexuality, as if it has become entirely recontextualized and now just connotes some sort of unspecified lameness.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 15:53 (twenty years ago)

rad xpost hstencil, i just thread connex'd this.

― x j e r e m y (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 15:53 (twenty years ago)

QUIT IT WITH YOUR GAY THREADS ALREADY

― dean? (deangulberry), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 15:55 (twenty years ago)

the first time I ever heard the "gay" thing was back in middle school in 1985, when my friends went to visit their cousins in Canada, and came back saying it. Can we blame Canada for this?

― kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 15:59 (twenty years ago)

lauren, yeah, me too. I know that's how they seem to see it. I just don't think it's been entirely recontextualized to the general public, and since it's a decidedly negative connotation, it aint right.

that said, this is the gayest place in the US

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:01 (twenty years ago)

it's no Provincetown.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:01 (twenty years ago)

whereas ironic hating of the irish just hasn't increased enough yet

― Kingfish von Bandersnatch (Kingfish), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:01 (twenty years ago)

nude beaches and all

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:02 (twenty years ago)

Most of the time, there's nothing ironic about the way kids use gay to mean lame. To most kids, "gay" (or, for that matter, "retarded") is a perfectly good synonym for lame, and thoughts of homosexuality have nothing to do with it (yeah, xpost with Lauren).

I can see how someone might then reclaim the word, with full knowledge of its political incorrectness, and use it ironically. I see people doing this sort of thing A LOT with Jewishness -- making jokes with Jewish friends about their "money-grubbing" tendencies, etc. But the difference, I think, is that anti-Semitism (in the U.S. at least) is seen to be a concern of the past, or at least of a fairly small minority -- the joke's on the old guard who are genuinely paranoid about Jews taking over the world. Whereas with homosexuality, I don't think that gays/lesbians have made enough inroads yet for that kind of thing to be funny. It's not yet a given that gays are okay for people to be ironically homophobic; there's a danger that the irony won't be fully understood as such.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:05 (twenty years ago)

maybe if more gay public figures came out of the closet it'd be less of a problem.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:06 (twenty years ago)

or if fucking NEDWARD FLANDERS would come out of the closet. seriously.

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:09 (twenty years ago)

like bitch! i never get offended by that anymore. sorry i'll get outta here with my sarcasm now.

-- The Lady Ms Lurex

Wait up...

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 16:39 (twenty years ago)

Cary Grant knew the alternative meaning of "gay" when he said "I turned gay all of a sudden" in that forties flick (can't recall the title)

It's Bringing Up Baby from 1938, Tuomas:

Mrs. Random: Well, you look perfectly idiotic in those clothes.
David Huxley: These aren't my clothes.
Mrs. Random: Well, where are your clothes?
David Huxley: I've lost my clothes!
Mrs. Random: But why are you wearing *these* clothes?
David Huxley: Because I just went gay all of a sudden!

― AaronHz, film buff loser (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

or if fucking NEDWARD FLANDERS would come out of the closet. seriously.

Perhaps he'll be the first white down-low man.

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago)

http://buddyhead.fistfulayen.com/homo_shirt.jpg

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 19:31 (twenty years ago)

This could fit here, or the Things You Hate Thread

-People who respond to the word faggot by saying "Oh yeah, have you ever looked up the word faggot in the dictionary? It's just a bundle of sticks."

Ugh do I hate those people.

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Are you a fifth-grade teacher, David?

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 20:54 (twenty years ago)

Slightly off topic, but when we put on a club night in Sydney it's meaningful to ask, 'Is the night gay, straight or queer?' The latter refers to a mix of freaks and sexual orientations and doesn't appear to mean the same thing as 'gay' any more.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 21:18 (twenty years ago)

I swear to you I've heard adults say that.

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 21:36 (twenty years ago)

BUTT Magazine:And you never declare yourself gay as such...
Michael Stipe:I don’t. I think there’s a line drawn between gay and queer, and for me, queer describes something that’s more inclusive of the grey areas. There are people that very strongly identify themselves as gay and then lesbian, and then I think there are a lot of people who are kind of some percentage or some version of that. But it’s really about identity I think. The identity that I’m comfortable with is queer because I just think it’s more inclusive.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 21:41 (twenty years ago)

Sheesh, David. That's like Bart Simpson saying "damn" and "hell" and claiming biblical immunity.

club night in Sydney = "sorry, private party" to people like me.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 21:42 (twenty years ago)

I don't know about the origins of "gay", though.

It was a Victorian term for the sex industry.

― Christine 'Green Leafy Dragon' Indigo (cindigo), Thursday, 29 July 2004 01:42 (twenty years ago)

club night in Sydney = "sorry, private party" to people like me.
-- Pleasant Plains

Solution: arrive wearing only biker shorts.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Thursday, 29 July 2004 02:00 (twenty years ago)

I was once turned away from a Sydney party at which I was supposed to be playing.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Thursday, 29 July 2004 02:01 (twenty years ago)

Ironic homosexual in America: On the increase?

Yes.

― x j e r e m y (x Jeremy), Thursday, 29 July 2004 02:02 (twenty years ago)

There's actually an E on the end of gheye, Dom.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 July 2004 07:30 (twenty years ago)

Google search results for "ghey": 24,600
Google search results for "gheye": 232

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 July 2004 08:01 (twenty years ago)

-People who respond to the word faggot by saying "Oh yeah, have you ever looked up the word faggot in the dictionary? It's just a bundle of sticks."

That is, actually, where the phrase came from. It relates to the fact that the punishment for buggery used to be being burned alive.

Nice, huh?

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Thursday, 29 July 2004 08:10 (twenty years ago)

but they burned people alive for any kind of fornication no? (er, the basis of my historical research for this is 'The Devils')

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 29 July 2004 08:30 (twenty years ago)

Don't know... I only know my History Of Gay Fornication. What happened to Other Fornicators is beyond my ken..

I wonder why we aren't ALL faggots, then? In the metaphorical sense.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Thursday, 29 July 2004 08:34 (twenty years ago)

too much effort

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 29 July 2004 08:39 (twenty years ago)

Oh...its really worth it, y'know...

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Thursday, 29 July 2004 08:57 (twenty years ago)

It relates to the fact that the punishment for buggery used to be being burned alive.

I honestly always thought the word "faggot" came from Mr Brain:

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 29 July 2004 13:20 (twenty years ago)

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 29 July 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago)

Why can't I enter pics anymore?

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 29 July 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago)

It's not spelled "ghey" but rather "gei". something that is more gei than gei is therefore geir.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 29 July 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago)

I probably sound as irritating as the bundle of sticks person, but I actually had an entertaining exchange with a kid I'm friends with by calling him on the "gay" thing.
"That toy is go gay."
"You mean he has sex with other gay male toys? Wow, let's find another one."
"No, I don't mean... That's not what I mean by gay."
"Okay, this one might be gay, too..."
etc.

― Pete Scholtes, Friday, 30 July 2004 03:13 (twenty years ago)

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