"The differences between men and women!!!!"

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Christ if I hear another radio talk show debate or jocular uncle outraged auntie classroom discussion about this I think I'll spit some teeth.

Why is this always handled so cackhandedly? And is its status as a subject of fascination for crap radio/crap discussions just an extension of peoples desire to make jokes about sex?

I mean there is a radio show here which pretty much reflects every classroom discussion I've ever heard of this sort of thing.

step 1: male host makes dashing and daring mildly sexist but ancient and conservative comment.

step 2: female hostess locks horns and gets "annoyed".

Alternatively and this one is worse.

step 1: female host throws ball to male host in the form of "of course guys will just jump into bed with anyone after a few drinks??"

step 2: male host smashes ball towards the sun enthusiastically, "a few drinks???? I want to cheat on my wife with someone when I read her name in the phonebook!!!"

What's the deal? It all seems like the most basic and lowest form of "discussion" I can think of.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon II - jocular uncle outraged auntie

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

that's all well and good but this is a humourless thread.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

you're telling me.

The difference between men and women is potentially a fascinating subject though. The radio shows you described sound crap though.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:07 (twenty-one years ago)

then again i don't think i've heard many radio shows that actually contained decent discussions about anything.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree it is potentially fascinating but the above jokes etc seem to act as an obstruction to that. What are people so afraid of? Removing their gender identity from a generalised construct??

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

John Gray and Deborah Tannen to thread.

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think it's just a prob with radio either.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

men are from mars, women are envious of their penis

― the neurotic awakening of germaine freud (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say about 10 percent of the differences between men and women are biological, and 90 percent are due to what gender theorists call "socialization to gender roles".

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i think the problem is people are so keen to generalise so much about an entire gender as if there are evident common traits among them. whether this is actually true or provable or not is in turn thwarted by the need to call people out on sweeping generalisations re gender. and i'm not sure which approach is the most logical.

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not an easy topic to discuss really, since it comes down to nature/nuture toss-arguing among people with no scientific knowledge, time and again.

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not a biologist, but I'd say it doesn't take much scientific knowledge to realize a lot of the stuff is learned, instead of being "natural".

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Deborah Tannen is a sociolinguist though, so at least she is looking at perceptible, measurable differences in a certain area (language) and applying them to something like the workplace where having awareness of these sorts of differences can actually be handy (and not just differences between men and women).

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know. It seems to me that the differences between *individuals* are so much greater than the differences between the "genders" (social construct, preconceived idea, biological or whatever) that any discussion is going to be fairly useless.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

women always complain about men leaving the toilet seat up innit?

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Kate OTM - sweeping generalisations along gender lines never cease to enrage me.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Deborah Tannen bases the majority of her work on assumptions she's gathered from her own experience. There's nothing measurable about it.

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Stevem is right, of course, there aren't just two universal genders, applicable everywhere and to every person. The variations of how gender is interpreted and acted out are infinite.

(x-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

the topic "differences between men and women" by nature is a generalisation surely? traits more common with men aren't always present in some men/are apparent in some women and vice versa. but it doesn't necessarily mean the subject should be one that isn't discussed upon.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

But, in practice, in the societies we live in, behavioural differences do occur, do they not?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not a biologist, but I'd say it doesn't take much scientific knowledge to realize a lot of the stuff is learned, instead of being "natural".

-- Tuomas (tuomas.alh...), August 6th, 2004.

Yeah, course, if you think you can set yourself outside of 'nature' and 'nurture' in order to comment on them. The trouble is you can't.

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

and the fact that some traits are biological and some are socially induced makes the subject even more fascinating.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

also, we're looking at 'differences' not 'similarities'. talking about the former does not amount to a denail of the latter.

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

is there a real difference? if there is what's caused these supposed differences? is it a good thing? if not is there something that can be done in the society to change it?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm curious to know what ILXors might make of this thread from A N Other message board...

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

According to TV ads:

Women are more worried than men about ageing skin and skin condition generally, the state of their hair and other primarily aesthetic issues

Only men drink beer

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

ENRG, you can, for example, do a cross-culture study to prove what I'm saying. Social scientists can never get "outside" the subject of their study, and yet social science is conducted. You're limitimg yourself to the views of the natural sciences.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the person in my office who has just undergone gender reassignment just walked past my desk. Maybe I should ask him, I mean, her.

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, yeah, fair play, the point is all science constitutes its own object, is ultimately tautological (nb: I don't belive this, but may as well run with it)...

stevem -- these days ads are full of beer drinking women. and what about this head and shoulders ad for men>?>>

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:25 (twenty-one years ago)

haha there is someone on that thread called G-Man

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, it makes sense really. Toilet seat up means the bloke doesn't have to touch the seat post slash. It also means it is ready to use for the next time. Obviously this could be seen as rather selfish, but then if the bloke puts down both lids, then anyone using the toilet next will have to touch the seat.

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

ENRG - i have a 1980s TV (or, which ads specifically feature women drinking beer? And shampoo is different to all those styling products)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I went through a phase of putting both lids down, i'm harsh but fair

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

errrrrrrrr, can't think of a specific one. erm, them old boddingtons ads?

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:27 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, well we know how unrealistic they were...

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

does Boddingtons even exist anymore?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

yes

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah MarkH she might have an interesting take on how the genders aren't so terribly similar after all

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, it makes sense really. Toilet seat up means the bloke doesn't have to touch the seat post slash. It also means it is ready to use for the next time.

ours is constantly down because at our household the boys have tremendously precise penis muscle control and always get the pee through the seat.

girls take note.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

girls take note

you think you can order them around just cos you are a mang? for shame!

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I always leave the lid down, because I usually pee sitting down anyway. Also, I live with three girls.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

dude, most men get bossed around by women. i'm an individual who bosses other people around.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say about 10 percent of the differences between men and women are biological, and 90 percent are due to what gender theorists call "socialization to gender roles".

-- Tuomas (tuomas.alh...), August 6th, 2004.

OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:34 (twenty-one years ago)

did people deliberately make this thread an example of what I was complaining about to annoy me

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:36 (twenty-one years ago)

well apart from some people.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:36 (twenty-one years ago)

we need names

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

algernon carruthers

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:40 (twenty-one years ago)

"It seems to me that the differences between *individuals* are so much greater than the differences between the "genders" (social construct, preconceived idea, biological or whatever) that any discussion is going to be fairly useless."

You could use that argument to say that discussing any differences between any groups is useless. Nonetheless, there are ways that the French behave differently from the English, that upper class people behave differently working class people, that jocks behave differently from arty people, etc., etc. Looking at differences between men and women you can certainly generalise statistically on any number of behavioral patterns - i.e. 90 percent of violent crime is committed by men, and it's perfectly valid and indeed socially necessary to discuss why this might be. Statistically there are stark variations in the behavior of the different genders - just because these differences don't embrace every member of a gender and just because individual difference can often override gender difference is no reason to say the debate is useless.

― Bela Lugosi's Dad, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:42 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry what were you going on about?

Oh yeh - women natter don't they?

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree the debate is definitely important.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

the problem with saying '90% of difference is cultural' is that it suggests there could be a 'non-cultural' world in which difference is minimal because we have all realized our 'real' non-difference. i think the point in freud is not lack of difference but inability to come to terms with the real -- this is the source of fetishism, for example. it doesn't get you very far because everything, language especially, is cultural.

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Bela - I think what Ronan was attacking is not the idea of sociological study into gender behavior (ie why 90% of violent crime is committed by men) and more the nudge-wink "OMG! Men just love making lists and alphabeticising everything! Isn't that sad, eh girls?" jocular magazine/daytime TV thing that just takes these differences as assumed truths, regardless of accuracy.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

but is IS accurate! ;)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:50 (twenty-one years ago)

What about the gender ratio of ILE or indeed ILM - does it suggest....anything at all?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

"OMG! Men just love making lists and alphabeticising everything! Isn't that sad, eh girls?"

that is such a girl thing to do!

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 August 2004 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think maybe poss a bit because This Is What Mixed-Sex Groups Of People Talk About, thus raising the terrfying possibility that if it ws seriously discussed by smart people on the radio, they might work out the answer, then all reproduction ever would stop, then where would we be, IN THE PANDACAGE WATCHING PORN, thats where.

― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Friday, 6 August 2004 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

No we'd prob reproduce EVEN MORE, a hideous scenario

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 6 August 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

this is kind of the same phenom as when students go on gigglingly about their overdrafts and kebab consumption. i'm afraid some people are just lame ronan!

― dave amos, Friday, 6 August 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

lame ronan replaces regular ronan at about 6am every weekend morning

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

All men will vote for Jason in Big Brother

All women will vote for Nadia in Big Brother

dan 2 win, hello jane, will u marry me? xxxxx

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 6 August 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

it's true dave!

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 August 2004 12:58 (twenty-one years ago)

All men will vote for Jason in Big Brother

this is surely not true, but i don't know as i have never met a man who voted in Big Brother before (afaik)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

And there we have it

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 6 August 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, only gay men, of men, vote in Big Brother

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 6 August 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Pfft like they count

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 6 August 2004 13:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Real men drink kriek

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 6 August 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I have paid the phone bill for votes cast for Shell, votes which were cast with my consent and indeed from the same sofa.

― ENRG, Friday, 6 August 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Re: 90% of differences being cultural/learned, don't these differences still have a genetic base? It's not like they're completely arbitrary.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 6 August 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I've posted this before, but it's worth sharing again:

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0101/standup/

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 6 August 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW, I'm with Ronan: I can't fucking stand this kind of banter.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 6 August 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

But jaymc, we were just talking the other day about how there could never be a woman president because she'd probably blow up some country when ever she was on the rag. Remember? Eh? Eh?

― St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Friday, 6 August 2004 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I will cede to you that point, St. Nicholas.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 6 August 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

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