Britain under State of Emergency

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Or 'Civil Liberties: Search + Destroy'. Disturbing authoritarianism or justified by real threats of attrocities? Backfired disastrously when applied in N.Ireland. See:

The Observer:Britain placed under State of Emergency

European Convention on Human Rights

― stevo, Sunday, 11 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hrm. The ability to indefinitely detain them without trial? Why bother with an emergency order, why not just nick 'em and hold 'em on remand indefinitely pending a kangaroo court trial.

Ever get the feeling the gov't introduces endless reams of legislation for the sole purpose of justifying its own existence?

― ogden, Sunday, 11 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm not disagreeing that it's pretty disturbing, but I think it should be mentioned that this situation is different from NI. Supposing the UVF publicly proclaimed they would unleash bio-terror on Dublin as they considered them the same as the IRA, or Republicans declared that transit police were fair game as they were considered the same as RUC? I don't know if the gov't is going about things the right way (and, them included, who does?), but I think the fact that organisations like al-Mahajiroun are so publicly vociferous is interesting and needs to be looked at. (Unless they're gov't Frankensteins like Combat 18, but that's the road to madness.)

― dave q, Sunday, 11 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Eh? Wot that about Combat 18?

― DG, Sunday, 11 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I assume Dave is referring to the widely held belief that Combat 18 were thoroughly infiltrated by MI6, to the extent that it could not have existed without covert support. Then again I'd be worried if MI6 weren't infiltrating neo-nazi groups.

― stevo, Sunday, 11 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

which is the group which had to disband when it found that ALL its remaining members were MI6 plants?? (plants = operative word here)

― mark s, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Plants? Aren't vegetables plants Mark?

― Pete, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Does make you wonder what Combat 18, er, meetings were like. A room full of MI6 operatives all 'pretending' to be knuckle-scraping nazi thugs unaware everyone else is doing the same thing.

― stevo, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

On the far left, the Spartacists are widely seen as so heavily infiltrated by the CIA and MI5 as to be essentially a front used by The Man to discredit the far left.

This may or may not be true, but saying it is a great way of annoying Sparts.

― DV, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mark, this is bugging (ho!) me. I think it was one of the People's Army of Judeah-type leftist parties but I can't work out which one.

― Nick, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

was it class war? or are those mentalists still going?

― chris, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think I've only read abt it second-hand: as sort of an urban myth (of course it conforms to and confirms my comfy stereotypes of i. teenio-tiny leftie sectarians, and ii. "intelligence" service stupidity):

("evazev" for those who nevah worked it = name read abt in Hans Magnus Enzensberger's essay 'dreamers of the absolute': one of the revolutionary terrorist orgs in russia in the 1890s was headed by a fellow employed by the secret police: his cover was so GOOD that he assassinated his own BOSS w/i the police TWICE!!)

(i mean two successive bosses obv; one of his co-revolutionaries was called dora brilliant)

― mark s, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

DV: cop-baiting any group where you have no evidence, only rumor and suspician is the sure way to further govt. agenda. In the U.S. the panthers needed to worry far less about govt. infiltration than about the govt. "bad jacketing" members of them either to their or to other groups. Also recall accusations of Bolsheviks and german gold. The notion of cop-baiting any group/individual without definite proof sickens me to my stomach.

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Good to buy from pre-baited dealers tho, more reliable for some reason.

― dave q, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's coz the cops are the ones with access to the good dope anyway...

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The notion of cop-baiting any group/individual without definite proof sickens me to my stomach.

would you say the same about rumours suggesting Combat 18 is heavily infiltrated/compromised by MI5?

In Northern Ireland the Provos typically say that the Freds (military wing of Republican Sinn Féin) and Real IRA are largely pawns of MI5, presumably to annoy their members and discourage people from joining them.

― DV, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Um.. first there seems to be more than simply rumors behind the C18 infiltration stories -- second I'd hardly term that infiltration in the sense that it seems instead to be cooperation. If a southern cop puts on a klan hood at night, does that mean he's infiltrated, or that he's a cop *and* a racist klan member. Similarly with Hitler's brownshirts drawn from the officer corps. Finally, "baiting" C18 seems nonsensical -- b/c if I ment someone at all sympathetic to C18 I wouldn't discuss the gov't so much as either A) run or B) organize bigger & beefier ppl. than myself and kick his sorry ass. \

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Also, and more fundamentally, the objection to C18 is not that they are something different than whay they appear to be, but that they are exactly what they appear to be, and hence very scary/dangerous for precisely that reason.

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 12 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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