Two points of view

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Here's a dialogue I had the other day with an older and more conservative family member:

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Them: Have you noticed that there seem to be an awful lot more women presenting the news these days.

Me: I never really thought about it but I guess so.

Them: The thing is, they're always presenting the headlines and the more important stories. The inudstry is polarised - you have women cleaning the floors and women presenting the headlines, but they're not doing the middle-sized jobs.

Me: Well, that's a big generalisation, but suppose you're right I think I know why that would be....

Them: I know! It's because women always want to be in the spotlight! They work their ways up to the top by bei--

Me: Well, that's not actually what I was going to say...

Them: They sleep their ways up to the head presenter's chair...

Me: Uh... Ever thought about it being something to do with the news networks only offering women those kinds of jobs? To make people believe they're providing equal opportunities to women?

Them: (not listening for a second) It's disgusting, it really is... etc.
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This thread is not about the issue we were discussing here. I'm merely observing that often enough two people will jump to a conclusion when they see something happening. Incidentally, my relative is still recovering from a particularly tough seperation and this may have instilled this kind of attitude in him.

The point is, we both saw the same thing - more women in the top news jobs on television. As a libertarian crackpot I instantly assume that this is down to large manipulative powers (the media networks) who are creating a false sense of equality on their screens by showing only a few women in the top spots. On the other hand, my relation instantly sees this the other way - that it is the women manipulating inside the corporation by using conniving techniques.

We agree (to some extent): There are seemingly more women presenting the news; A lot of them seem to be on during the primetime slots and few in the less major jobs; And that there is something afoot.

This brought me round to thinking that once someone has sided with a political train of thought, it is very hard to switch track, even temporarily. Therefore one's conclusion can differ wildly depending on one's political inclination.

My instant, and perhaps knee-jerk reaction was to find something wrong within the system - it has to be the big corporations that are doing this as they are the reason for all the evil in the world. The fatcats are evil and are always out for personal gain. Plus it is very difficult to trick or manipulate them, therefore they MUST be the problem. But what if this is wrong?

What if someone did manage to infiltrate the media structure, like my relation said? He understands, nay - he KNOWS that the "little people" are also resourceful and sometimes conniving enough to get away with, for instance, sleeping their ways up to the frontline - it's been done before to some of the most powerful men in the world, and it can happen again.

Similarly I was talking to an American friend who said she had had to protest alongside a number of young Conservatives at an anti student fees rally. She cited that the Conservatives were against paying fees for minorities and for schemes they didn't want. The Liberal side were protesting the fees because they felt it morally unfair to put such high prices on education. I found this strange too.

So really what I'm wondering is - because we're so inclined to "knee-jerk" when we see something, does this mean that any strand of social thinking is right? When we see something happen which is hard to figure out, our natural consistancy tells our brain to think "Okay, what do your socio-political beliefs believe?" and usually our gut reaction is correct (to ourselves anyway). I KNEW I was right in my conclusion, and my relation KNEW he was right - because it fit in with our regular adherence.

Is this a good thing? Should we learn to step back and stop thinking about things in our own terms? I guess this is what makes a good detective, politician or pragmatist, although it's a rare quality for someone to see a whole picture and derive the truth from that rather than jump to their own personal big book of rules and beliefs.

I think that well before I started getting interested in current affairs my beliefs were not fully formed. I took great pride in my ignorance claiming that as an apolitical citizen I was able to make my own choices regardless of which party I voted for or what books or newspapers I'd read. I think in some ways this could be true.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry if that didn't read so well, it was straight off the top of my head. I often beg for an "edit" button on ILx.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a good question, but I find it kind of unanswerable.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

yeh, sorry - i don't even know what the question is really. i guess it makes sense to once in a while put down your guns. Consistency, hobgoblins etc. still people don't do it. it's a lot easy to do it the conservative way or the green way or the anarchist way - because you've honed yourself into thinking like this.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe it's down to doing things the other way round - like a good scientist or researcher.

A bad researcher:
looks at the problem or question -> comes to a conclusion -> finds facts and evidence to support the claim

A good researcher:
looks at the facts -> sees a problem or question -> uses the facts to answer the problem or question.

People when talking about politics and sociology rarely do the latter example. They put their own ideologies first. How could I as a peace-loving, underdog supporting libertarian go round accusing women of sleeping their ways to the top of the jobs chain? How could I protest student fees on the basis that they are going towards minority students? And of course this would be the same for an authoritarian.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 10:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyway, 300 posts by the afternoon please.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 10:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't like positive discrimination or 'affirmative action' but i do like restoring balance, that's the quandary right?

the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

stevem - the original discussion with my relation was yes. he was saying that the "positive discrimination" was down to the individual mentality of some women who wished to get "on top", so to speak. i said it was down to the networks parading women around during the primetime hours like tributes to the network's "positive discrimination".

that said, this is the set up to my argument that people inherently jump to a prescribed conclusion based upon their political and social stance.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Things like 'they slept their way there' -- well, you gotta think on case-by-case basis, seen?

A bad researcher:
looks at the problem or question -> comes to a conclusion -> finds facts and evidence to support the claim

A good researcher:
looks at the facts -> sees a problem or question -> uses the facts to answer the problem or question.

But this isn't always true, because facts in themselves are lazy and they are late, erm, but really facts in themselves get you nowhere.

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

not if you've done your research properly. if the facts are wrong, then they're not facts at all are they?

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

it's not about them being wrong as such, but it's more that they are simple and they are straight.

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

the idea that Moira Stewart slept her way to the top...

the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Dog latin is related to Calum?!

Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

unfortunately one is going to look for the "facts" that support your claim. i think this is why people like michael moore, or even john gray get a lot of criticism. because while their books and movies are popular, they are transparently based around "facts" that they have looked for (or in many cases made-up themselves) to project a certain point of view.

this is going slightly off topic but many facts get ignored in the search for "facts", just because they don't fit the researcher's puzzle.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

no, i am not related to calum.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

but having a lot of facts lying around will fuck you up, not only because facts won't do what you want them to. you can't say anything meaningful based on facts alone. but in any case your selection procedure *of* facts is already a prejudgement. what facts you think are relevant is a prejudgement.

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Even in hard sciences research, I think your 'good researcher' model is pretty impossible to follow.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Just joking, but the things your family member said reminded me a bit of C-man's arguments here.

Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of the "pop-psych" writers do this. Take John Gray as an extreme example when he wrote "Men are from Mars"... he got a bunch of questions based upon preforegone conclusion, then basically presented a bunch of made-up "facts" and presented them as FACTS.

People do this in politics too.

I don't see why the first research model couldn't work - it's the way a good scientist would come round to figuring something out and solving a problem. Why can't this method be subscribed to by political thinkers?

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I just don't think science does quite work like that, contrary to popular opinion. There's a lot of hunches, pet theories and observer effect.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh shit I thought you meant John 'Straw Dogs' Gray. But scientists can't just go off rooting for 'facts': they're all over the bloody shop. There's always some pre-existing framwork that sets out some paths for them.

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

What did you think of Straw Dogs, ENRQ?

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

A bit violent. Crazy accents. Er, I haven't read it, I'm afraid, but I know JG's schtick from my New Statesman-reading phase.

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

There is, yes. I'm not denying that.

But why do people feel they have to fit their conclusion to what they've been believing all the way through?

Many people get presented with facts (or "facts") that blow away their previous theories. Rather than be disheartened or face the terrible humiliation of admitting they might be wrong, they look for other ways to justify themselves.

For instance Republicans who saw Fahrenheit 9/11 didn't stop to challenge much of the apparent evidence that Moore was putting forward. Instead they dismissed it as lies and a distortion of the truth. When all else fails, dismiss it.

Should we be so stubborn as to never falter from a path we've been beating for so long? And do we even realise we're being so strict with ourselves? Can we all live by our own all-encompassing rule? I think the more one subscribes to a political or social mandate, the more one becomes addicted in a way to that way of thinking until one has to apply the same rule to every problem that gets in one's way.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, in general I agree with you. A problem with certain forms of Marxism has been that what can be quite a supple jump-off for understanding how history 'moves' has become a kind of rigid quasi-metaphysical system, in which -- this is the key thing -- events/facts are seen as SYMPTOMS of the 'big picture'. Rather than the big picture being (as it was in Marx's own work) made up from a theoretical engagement with facts.

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

and the problem is in politics that you can't say one thing one day and something entirely different the next. people need consistency in their parties in order to know what it is they are supporting. this kind of fanaticism of strict adherence is perhaps one of the pitfalls of modern democracy.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)


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