Is there a figure in Greek mythology that is kind of Machiavellian?

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Anyone know?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Hermes? Hades?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I suppose I mean a god that represents scheming etc.

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I'll look those up in Brewer's - thanks.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Why do you need to know this?

(I don't know the answer to the question)

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Hermes is closer to what you're looking for.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, it's a wok thing.

Brewer's is much more useless than I thought. It basically just says Hermes = Mercury = Messenger. I shall look elsewhere.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry - not a wok thing. Work.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Hermes was sorta half playful half not. As a figure if not a god, Odysseus perhaps? The mythology doesn't seem to lend itself to gods and figures who are obsessed with power and control per se, though I could be overlooking the obvious.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Zeus has gone on record fucking with people, even his own god-children.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, Zeus is kind've a dick, but he's more into hideous rape than scheming, I think.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

what about HERA?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I was considering Odysseus, but I've gone with Hermes. Happens to be esp. appropriate as he's also the god of athletes, being fast and agile, and the story's about the Olympics. Thanks all.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

(Uh I think the answer is actually Momus, god of criticism and satire. Sorry about that)

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

was machiavelli scheming?

― cºzen (Cozen), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Suzy OTM, but there's also Eris, the goddess of discord.

― j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Cozen, I don't think machiavellian really means 'like Machiavelli' anymore.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Sophocles' Philoktetes to the thread!

Odysseus, as he was portrayed during the Periclean age rather than in Homer, probably best qualifies as a Machiavellian figure from mythology. The gods weren't particularly calculating for the same reason that comic superheroes aren't - they were immortal and had superpowers, so didn't need to calculate.

The ironic thing is that, if you wanted to know what actual historic figure was the most Machiavellian, you'd have to sort through a terrible glut of candidates - although I'd select Alkibiades as the leader by an eyelash in a very, very crowded field.

― Aimless The Unlogged, Friday, 13 August 2004 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, Hermes if you want a god known for being a scheming trickster. But if you really think about it, nearly all of greek mythology is sort of machiavellian in tone (in terms of pragmatism and selfishness being accepted and even admired motivations or behavior).

― mouse (mouse), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there a god in Greek mythology who is NOT machivellian? They were always fueding, pitting mortals against each other, disguising themselves as various things etc.

Poseidon was a total arsehole to Odysseus, but as I remember his methods were quite crude; creating mighty winds and the like.

― Wooden (Wooden), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I am thinking the classical gods were less like Marvel superheroes and more like characters from the Beano.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Themistocles was pretty scheming too.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I think all of the Greek gods would have trouble running for public office.

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

The greek gods lied and schemed, but with all the sophistication of a gaggle of 10 year olds. Hardly what I would call Machiavellian. But at least Zeus was smarter than his predecessor, Kronos, who was as dumb as a bag of rocks.

― Aimless The Unlogged, Friday, 13 August 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

haha! Another vote for Alkibiades too.

― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Friday, 13 August 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Would Athena qualify as an unscheming deity?

― Mr. Tony Plow (Leee), Friday, 13 August 2004 22:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Sisyphus or Hera.
Athena interceded on behalf of the Greeks during the Trojan war, so she wasn't totally above scheming.

― name, Saturday, 14 August 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

All the Greek gods and goddesses were machiavellian - but some were maybe more cunning or smarter than others.

This is interesting isn't it? Why were they all so machiavellian? Does it make Greek mythology unique? What is it supposed to demonstrate, since they do not seem to be embodiments of facets of wisdom like say buddhist deities? Is there any writing or thinking on this?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Saturday, 14 August 2004 06:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it's something to do with the fact that the greek gods are narrative figures, and to get a good story you need foibles and quirks, caricature and skullduggery. In comparison, the Christian God is pretty lame, like some sort of politician who doesn't dare to say or do anything in case it might seem 'controversial'. I mean, he creates the world, he sends his son to die for the sins of man... and then what? No appearance in the storyline for two thousand years. Because, let's face it, being omnipotent and the source of all goodness is just bloody dull.

― Momus (Momus), Saturday, 14 August 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

That's true, or at least until Satan came along. Then we had a rollicking good story on our hands.

It's like for the Greeks, the gods were such entertaining bufoons it was like the national superhero soap opera. Just speculating here, but it maybe also implies, by the disrespect and lack of awe towards the gods which such antics surely encourage, that perhaps they were on the cusp of atheism.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Saturday, 14 August 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I got the impression that in the time of Socrates the gods were kind of like pop stars, and that fashions would change pretty quickly. There would be some new "river cult" and you'd go down there with your friends, or like-minded people, or people you wanted to be like-minded with and make a sacrifice, or do whatever awesome culty things you'd do.. Our similar lack of awe for our celebrities, as seen in the whipcrack sympathies of the NME or the pop charts, doesn't mean we're on the cusp of dispensing with popstars; in some weird way it almost shows how passionately we feel about them?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 14 August 2004 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, that's true.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Saturday, 14 August 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I got the idea that the gods were so awful (not just "flawed," downright vengeful and sadistic sometimes) partly just to reflect that the world is full of awful things beyond our control. If your gods are supposed to represent different facets of life, they sort of do need to be two-faced and uncaring if you're not going to pull one of those "all suffering is for the greater good" type arguments.

― Maria (Maria), Saturday, 14 August 2004 23:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Eris, I reckon, fits the bill.
If you can look further than the Greeks, Loki is the Norse god of deviousness.

― beanz (beanz), Monday, 16 August 2004 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

And if it doesn't have to be a God, Odysseus was seen as pretty cunning, but in a fox way not a politician way.

― beanz (beanz), Monday, 16 August 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess the Greek gods were the most human of any gods - horrible, adulterous, lying, bullying self centred beings.

Creon from Sophocles' Antigone is quite Machiavellian, in that he's a politician excercising power and trying to manipulate public opinion etc.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Monday, 16 August 2004 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

... maybe also implies, by the disrespect and lack of awe towards the gods which such antics surely encourage, that perhaps they were on the cusp of atheism.

I'm not sure. I think deities are necessary for every culture that hasn't yet worked out a critical mass of laws of nature scientifically. The Greeks had no way of accounting for the existence of anything apart from by ascribing the world to beings that were altogether more powerful than themselves. (Like every pre-atheist society, obv.) But the Greeks just couldn't imagine why anyone who wasn't capricious would create a world so screwed up. I agree with Momus - omnipotent and stable deities imply a lack of imagination. That's why I think the "greatest story ever told" is the Iliad and Odyssey and Aeneid and all that. Or possibly Mr Tickle from the Mr Men.

― beanz (beanz), Monday, 16 August 2004 09:54 (twenty-one years ago)

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