ilxers of Chicago and its environs: suggest us some things please

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Me and my girl are coming to Chicago to see M.Mayer/R.Voigt rock smartbar Oct. 30 and we need some suggestions from those in the know about what to do, where to eat, where to record shop, and generally how to kill time for several hours before the show, preferably within walking distance of the venue as we'll be on foot.

yeah!

andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Speedboat ride.

adam. (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't really know the area near Smartbar. Pick Me Up Cafe is near there, they're pretty good for dinery breakfasty kinda things.

n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

there's like 10 what-to-do-in-Chicago threads.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi Andrew! I'm fairly sure I'll be at that show.

I'm not sure when you're getting in or where you're staying or any of that, but keep in mind that SmartBar is fairly close to the Addison el stop on the Red Line, so you may have more options that way.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

In general, though: that neighborhood is Wrigleyville, where the Cubs play, so I expect it will be crowded as the World Series will be going on.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

(ho ho)

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I've stayed in Wrigleyville. There is a Dunkin Donuts.

adam. (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

You'll have to tell me more about what sorts of restaurants and time-killing activities appeal to you, though.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Drinking - try Ten Cat on Ashland near Irving Park or the Long Room on Irving Park west of Ashland. They are both much less crowded with rimheads than the dreary frat bars that line Clark Street and Sheffield.

Food-wise, one of my favorite moderate-priced dinner places in Chicago is Deleece, on Southport just north of Irving Park. And just a couple blocks south of that is the historic Music Box movie theater, which often has exclusives on good indie fare.

Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

SmartBar, at 3730 N. Clark, is close to the end of a long commercial strip along Clark Street. Walk up to six blocks south, and you'll find a pretty good comix store, a couple of Ethiopian restaurants (Mama Desta > Addis Abeba), a Thai restaurant, a Cajun restaurant, a biker/burger/BBQ-type joint, the diner that N/A mentioned, several vintage clothes stores, a couple of boutiques, an improv theater, and lots of sports/frat bars. (The two unassuming bars on the stretch that I like: Nisei Lounge and L&L Tavern.)

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Walking over to Southport is an option, sure -- going past Ashland seems like more of a walk, though. Depends on how much time you have, I guess. I have not been to Ten Cat, but I have heard good things.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

head to the north side. Go to Uncle Fun on belmont and Delilah's on around Lincoln & Belmont.

Uncle fun is a great, weird toy/pop culture yard sale store, and delilah's is one of the greatest bars i've ever been to...

Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

The main record store you'll want to check out is Reckless: it's roughly five blocks south and three blocks west of SmartBar -- on Broadway, just south of Belmont.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Delilah's is fine if you like ROCK AND FUCKING ROLL. Otherwise, I don't see what's so great about it.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost: Jaymc don't you mean Reckless is East?

Whoah Jaymc I was about to go all Zell Miller on you and then I realized I was confused. Cause the two Ethiopian restaurants right up there are Addis Abeba (which I love) and Ethio Village (which I sort of really don't); Mama Desta's, which I'm pretty down with, is a little south, though yeah, within that "six blocks south" range. Anyway I personally recommend Addis Abeba of the three of them, though not incredibly strongly over Mama Desta.

There are also plenty of reasonable bars in the area. The ones along Clark right by Wrigley are, of course, not the ones I have in mind, though there is a sports bar there that's okay if you like throwing darts. (And Sportscorner on the other side of Wrigley has that network trivia stuff, I'm totally down with that.) But yeah, there are perfectly good bars within walking or cabbing distance, lots of them. Sheffield's was always pretty alright, no? And Delilah's, yeah.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The whole Belmont strip there is a fine way to kill time and check out the last dying light of totally mid-90s teeny alterna-culture, which somehow still casts some faint dying glow over the neighborhood.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Village Thrift (or Village Discount Outlet?) at Halsted and George .. A real shithole & it smells, but some cheap deals ...

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, if you have time, I do recommend getting off that stretch of Clark Street near SmartBar. It's likely to give you a skewed inpression of the city, and even of that *part* of the city. That's that land of the Big Cub Fan and the Big Gut and the Big Drunk Asshole. The land of the Guy Who Yells "Woo!". It's very tiring.

Tonight at ten (kenan), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, yeah, EAST, my bad.

To be honest, Nabisco, I've only eaten at both Mama Desta's and Addis Abeba once, and while I thought Mama Desta's was pretty good, I didn't really like Addis Abeba much at all. I don't remember why, though.

I haven't been to Ethio Village, but my favorite Ethiopian restaurant in the city is Ras Dashen, in Edgewater.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

No, Kenan, he should go to John Barleycorn!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Or Goose Island! The real Chicago is all sharp-faced blonde girls and marketing degrees! City of big shoulders! And lacrosse caps! These are my people! I embrace them! I contain multitudes! Of Midwestern boys! In shiny polyester going-out shirts! From 1996!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I actually had a decent veggie burger at John Barleycorn, when I was young and didn't know where all the cool places were! (Kelsey will remember this.)

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

go to the real Goose Island, to that one oyster shack place.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not in the know, but I do know that if you want to go to cool places you should follow people wearing $200 jeans, layers of black fitted tops, emo glasses, and messenger bags.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 September 2004 21:30 (twenty-one years ago)

thanks for the suggestions. we won't have a lot of time (or $$) so we'll probably walk around in the area and at some point get some good eats. the ethiopian place sounds good. maybe Addis Abeba since it seems to be recommended over the other. then, we rock. then, we fly home and sleep.

andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

john, sadly, I don't remember. xpost

kelsey (kelstarry), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Really? We'd just moved to Chicago?

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

*scratches head*
*remembers that john doesn't like actions in the astericks*
um.
email me the story? maybe i just need a trigger?

kelsey (kelstarry), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

There's no story. We just went to John Barleycorn once. Ah, forget it.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 15 September 2004 15:19 (twenty-one years ago)

On Clark, about half a mile south of the Metro/SmartBar, is a great breakfast place called Orange. Home of such inventions as the Jelly Donut Pancakes and the Chai French Toast. And you get to create your own juice from about two dozens different ingredients!

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Thursday, 16 September 2004 22:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i went to see the Bahai temple which is very pretty. if you combine it with a lakeshore drive that's a decent couple of hours.

the neurotic rassafrassa of harrumph (blueski), Friday, 17 September 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you know that William Kennedy Smith goes to Hi-Tops? Oh well, he probably won't go anymore, but...I got a good laugh out of that one.

Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 17 September 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

The Bahai temple is in Wilmette, though!

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 17 September 2004 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

IS Reza's Persian restaurant as good as I remember? Last there 1998-We had about 30 people and let others order for me, so I have no idea what I ate but oh my god it was good.

The Baha'i Temple is by an ex's house-I loved to look at it when when drove by.

jocelyn (Jocelyn), Friday, 17 September 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

reza's is good but andie's (next door) is better!!

amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

the bahai temple makes a cameo in risky business

amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Am is OTM about Andie's.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Orange is amazing, and amazingly cheap. Yes yes yes. Do go there.

And Reza's ain't bad, but it's a risk. If you order the wrong thing, you could end up with a $20 plate that contains nothing more than a pound of dill rice and some bland hamburger meat.

Tonight at ten (kenan), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

the manager at andie's has the best shirt/tie combinations in chicago. FACT.

amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

You love that Andie's, am. So do I. I go there a lot to get take-out, in fact.

Reza's has this gigantic vegetarian plate that's pretty good, but you can't eat it all.

Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i am so hardcore, i remember the old, relatively dingy (and tiny) andie's. the same guy was manager, and he was already rocking the great shirt/tie combos.

amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm as hardcore as you are!! :P I ate there too! I remember having a bottle of wine there, and ordering all of your food at the counter.

I love their pita bread and their hummus.

Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i've thought that andie's has kinda gone downhill in quality. haven't been there in awhile, but the last time i was there, the waitstaff was horrible.

kelsey (kelstarry), Friday, 17 September 2004 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Horrible how? (I haven't eaten there in quite some time.)

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 17 September 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I have no idea what I ate but oh my god it was good.

See... full disclosure... I'm only maintaining that Reza's is good because I hear that from everyone I talk to about it, and so I blame myself when I go there and it's mediocre and disappointing and kinda nasty. I must have ordered the wrong thing, right? But speaking honestly -- and feel free to argue with me -- I've never eaten anything there that was very good at all. Dill rice and hamburger meat is what it's all about. And some kinda slimy dumpling things. If that's Persian food, I'm rather glad that Persia no longer exists. But I do *love* middle eastern food, and love Andie's, and eat at Taste of Lebanon at least once a week. Kick-ass hummus, I tell you.

Tonight at ten (kenan), Friday, 17 September 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

persia exists. it's called iran.

amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Right, but it's not called Persia. Unless Persia is the name of a region now, but I was under the impression it was a former sovereign nation.

Tonight at ten (kenan), Friday, 17 September 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

What's that Lebanese place in Old Town? That place rulez.

n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 17 September 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

i was just being silly, kenan, but iran is basically the same thing as persia. it's had at least nominal sovereignty for several thousand years.

best middle eastern food is at pita inn, obv.

amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I got some nice things (cheap, too) at Penelopes from local designer called Syndrome? I kinda like it. Thanks for the tip. Also saw a couple nice things at Untitled and a new boutique on Milwaukee called Hejfina. Ok stuff for guys - APC, Indigo People, Duffer St. George, and really nice stuff for girls - APC, Cacharel, Karen Walker, etc.

phil-two (phil-two), Thursday, 30 September 2004 01:49 (twenty-one years ago)

phil, try number apt 9 at 1804 damen, but yeah, barney's is still probably the best.

tricky disco (disco stu), Thursday, 30 September 2004 02:13 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i was going to go to apt #9, but it was about 6:30, so I figured they would be closed. I went to the barneys here, but like most of the shops i went to today, they really only had L, XL, and XXL left - and I wear size small. Went to George Greene, and they had a really nice Dior Homme suit, but smallest they had was size 50, and I wear 46.

met a nice fella working at one of the boutiques and he told me that morgan geist and daniel wang are playing at smart bar on saturday, so im gonna check that out, i think.

phil-two (phil-two), Thursday, 30 September 2004 02:24 (twenty-one years ago)

it's gonna ba wicked i think.

tricky disco (disco stu), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone else on Glenwood in Andersonville?

mck (mck), Thursday, 30 September 2004 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

MCK! I keep forgetting to e-mail you...

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

COME TO OUR PARTY, LURKERS.

n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

UNLESS YOU ARE LAME-O

amateur!!!st (amateurist), Thursday, 30 September 2004 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone else on Glenwood in Andersonville?

Are there many?

Jeff-PTTL (Jeff), Thursday, 30 September 2004 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I think maybe just me on Glenwood, though I'm ignorant of the precise locations of most ilxers, so perhaps there are more.

mck (mck), Thursday, 30 September 2004 18:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I am a block away from Glenwood!

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)


I would stop by to meet you guys, n/a, but I have to go to a wedding and I'm still living in the burbs. Won't be very soon, though.

k3rry (dymaxia), Thursday, 30 September 2004 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...
I need some suggestions, didn't want to start yet another thread ...

I'm taking my wife to Chicago for her birthday/graduation in December. We're going to be there for five days during the week, not over a weekend. We lived there for a few years and still visit occasionally on weekends, so we know the neighborhoods. But since we have more time and the rest of the city will be open as usual, i want to find something different for us to do. I think we're going to take cooking lessons one day (1/2 day) and maybe the Gene Siskel Film Center might have something going on ... I'm looking for more suggestions - behind the scenes tour of something that isn't touristy? Smaller museums? (International Museum of Surgical Science - has anyone been there?)

(Not looking for shopping, restaurants, bus tours, Frank Lloyd Wright, panoramic views, ...)

hmm?

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

The Surgical Science Museum is pretty cool, though not as much as the Mutter Museum in Philly. Lots of weird old instruments. It's kind of in an odd spot right on Lake Shore Drive, however.

Have you been to the Museum of Holography? I haven't. How about any of the trash talk shows? The Prairie Avenue stuff in the South Loop?

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks! I'll look into those too...

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 14:20 (nineteen years ago)

the baha'i temple in evanston? or is it wilmette? its nice lookin

phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

My brother, who sometimes posts here, used to work at the Int'l Museum of Surgical Science and helped curate one of the exhibits still on display there.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know if they still do them in the winter, but a few weeks ago I went on an architectural boat tour that was fantastic.

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

don't look up when you go under that one bridge near the house of blues.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

I've driven by the temple a few times... Have you ever been inside?

Are there any good factory tours of some interesting process? Like, not Vienna Beef, nor a brewery (although she loves Goose Island IPA, so maybe) ..

I've heard the arch tours are good (some of them.) It's a maybe, although in December, it may not be...

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

the boat tour ends sometime in november.

the vienna beef factory has a STORE.

the inside of the temple is pretty cool.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

i've looked for candy factory tours and they don't offer them, at least when i called about a year ago there were no tours being offered.

The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

don't look up when you go under that one bridge near the house of blues.

Why?

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:32 (nineteen years ago)

Last time I drove to Chicago, I bought a case of Vienna Beef hotdogs from the factory store. I'm only about 1/2 way through after more than a year. You get sick of 'em, ya know?

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:38 (nineteen years ago)

i've looked for candy factory tours and they don't offer them, at least when i called about a year ago there were no tours being offered.

because most of the candy factories are gone? damn you dayton hudson.

jordan, just in case the dave matthews band are in town.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:43 (nineteen years ago)

Ah, right.

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:01 (nineteen years ago)

Re candy factories: did you call Ferrara Pan?

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

can't recommend the garfield park conservatory more highly. after the big chihuli (sp?) show there a couple of years ago, they've put a ton of money into rehabbing and cleaning it up. it's resplendent and since it's so warm and green year round, a fantastic winter visit. plus you can re-enact our wedding there if you so please. email me for details.

my name is john. i reside in chicago. (frankE), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

Also, do you know of any really nice, small restaurants? Arun's is one I'm considering .. But I'm also looking for some other ideas of multi course meals in a relatively small space (party of 6 sometimes loud people though..) Any of the restaurants in The Drake?

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

Try De Cero. It's on Randolph & Halsted.

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:16 (nineteen years ago)

I looked that up. sounds really good - that'll probably be a stop on the tour...

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:22 (nineteen years ago)

I've been to Aruns. It's near my mom's house on the northside. It's pretty expensive - $85 prix fixe, but so worth it. It's modest on the outside, but inside its like really pretty. Totally worth the trip out to the northside. The food is fantastic. I mean, pricy for Thai food, but the golden baskets are great. And the poached pear for dessert. Well, not sure if its worth the money, but it is nice.

phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

Also, the Lincoln Park Conservatory, though small, has a beautiful orchid room that leaves me twitterpated. There is also a small free zoo nearby.

Prancing Animals (coco), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

twitterpated.

NOT A WORD, PROBABLY.

giboyeux (skowly), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

Yet, somehow, a word for CHICAGO to use!

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 22:47 (nineteen years ago)

I don't remember why these are on my list, but any experiences with them would be helpful:
Victory's Banner
Bistrot Zinc
Chic Cafe (cooking & hospotality institute)

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 23:05 (nineteen years ago)

btw, anyone going to be there for thanksgiving weekend? i'll be around if anyone wants to get drinks

phil-two (phil-two), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 00:05 (nineteen years ago)

Pita Inn in skokie!

And perhaps catch a movie at the music box.

deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 00:12 (nineteen years ago)

I'm trying to stay away from all of our old haunts. Makes this a bit difficult.. No Music Box, No Museums (except maybe if they have adult classes or something) .. never spent much time West of the Loop.. never had much of a reason to ... anything there now?

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 01:43 (nineteen years ago)

Garfield Park Conservatory seconded or thirded. Truly the prettiest spot in Chicago, any time of year.

Bistro Zinc is nice and not too expensive. Better luck for you if you go before 7pm.

ng-unit, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 02:20 (nineteen years ago)

Also, Puppet Parlor is one of the most cracked-out places I've ever been to. Do you partake of recreational drugs? You may need them.

ng-unit, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 02:22 (nineteen years ago)

Hmm, a couple of the candy factories have tours, don't they? And Eli's Cheesecake has a tour!

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 06:02 (nineteen years ago)

Victory's Banner is an excellent vegetarian place, but it's only open until 3 pm, serving brunch and lunch, and you can expect a pretty long wait (around 45 minutes) if you get there between 10 and noon and/or if you have more than 2 people in your party. It's run by a mysterious and vaguely Eastern cult but they don't proselytize and it's not creepy.

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

I LOVE VICTORY'S BANNER.

kelsey (kelstarry), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

I do to, but every time we go I get really stressed out by the wait. I have patience issues. :(

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

too obv.

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

I was thinking Eli's might be fun, until I realized it would be a $25 cab ride to wear a hair net...

Puppet Parlor, lookin good...

Ooh, I hate to wait - although it's not as bad if I'm waiting for a unique restaurant.. I don't get the point of people waiting 1.5 hours for the Cheesecake Factory (not Eli's, but the dull restaurant.) But late breakfast and 2:00 lunch might be a plan.

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

sis and i will be returning to chicago...with friends...30 dec- 2 jan. any notable shows/parties/hang out sessions around then? and then there's new year's eve!

ai lien (kold_krush), Friday, 11 November 2005 00:26 (nineteen years ago)

The F@ke F1ctions (me & Sarah's band) is playing on Dec. 30th at Cal's, this bar in the south loop, with my friend's band from West Virginia. So you could come to that if you want.

n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 11 November 2005 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

ok!

ai lien (kold_krush), Friday, 11 November 2005 17:06 (nineteen years ago)


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