someone in my office is campaigning against late licensing laws in london, and doing it loudly on the phone

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she's doing it from a health worker perspective. she's calling health organisations to see how late licensing laws in islington might impact street drinking, gathering evidence for why it's a bad idea, getting them to write MPs, all that.

arguments include: costs to police/NHS of people that binge drink, public safety issues, etc.

i'm wondering if this is actually a big enough issue that the current licensing laws (which, coming from the states, i find restrictive) should stay. i mean, i'd like to be able to pop out to buy a bottle of wine at the shop at 1am on a weekend. and i seriously doubt that there is such a large population of street drinkers that it will make a huge impact on budgets of NHS/police.

what do you think? are the costs of abuse of late licenses by some people worth the convenience for the rest of us?

i just heard her say 'i have a personal experience...my grandpa is a severe alcoholic...'

― colette (a2lette), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 10:59 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not exactly convenient to find yourself leaving a pub at 1am with only the nightbus to take you home.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)

In that case, I imagine her Grandpa is disappointed in his grand-daughter's current campaign

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

In that case, I imagine her Grandpa is disappointed with his grand-daughter's current campaign

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Much better.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:04 (twenty-one years ago)

surely street drinkers will be street drinkers regardless of whether they can buy their plonk at 12:30am or 1am? i don't reckon later licenses are going to create more of them. so that argument seems a bit spurious to me.

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:05 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not exactly convenient to find yourself leaving a pub at 1am with only the nightbus to take you home.

but aren't you an adult enough to make that choice for yourself? you could go to a pub near your house, or go to an off-license and get drinks for home. and i get busses home, generally, anyway.

― colette (a2lette), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

They'll have no reason to drink in the streets if the pubs are open later

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

From a public safety point of view staggered closing hours are probably safer, as you don't have hundreds of people piling out onto the street at the same time, so in theory there are fewer potential flashpoints.

The health question is a trickier one. I am 100% certain that if pubs stayed open later, I would stay in them longer, at weekends if nothing else. That can't be good for the livers of thousands of similarly minded people.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Islington has that stupid Walkabout and other rubbish pubs/bars (worst Wetherspoons ever up in the mall) so come 11.30 on a Fri/Sat night it's a bit ugly, so i can understand the protest in that respect - but how can it really get any worse round there?

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

What is 'street drinking' anyway? Can I safely assume it involves standing around swigging Super Tennants and whatnot?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Street drinking is banned outright in Glasgow and that's not exactly the safest place to be of a Friday night

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

street drinking (drinking in a public place/outside of licenced premises or private residence) is illegal where i live. the cops make you tip your drink out, it's always a bit devastating if it happens after the pub is closed. maybe that could be bad! increased number arguments with the cops leading to drunken twits getting arrested!

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

i wouldn't have a problem with 'banning' street drinking as i have no desire to do it myself

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Gareth and Ronan to thread!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I am 100% certain that if pubs stayed open later, I would stay in them longer, at weekends if nothing else.

Really? I think people would tend to get to the pub later and enjoy a more relaxed time, not having to cram enough pints in to feel socially ept enough to dance at whatever club was happening after. Can Australians back this up?

Also, do street drinkers buy from pubs? Er, no.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Gareth and Ronan to thread!

ah yes, disgusting behaviour...

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i am australian and if i'm out on the piss i tend to stay at the pub till it closes generally, but the pubs have always been open late so i dunno what impact it has on what time i get to the pub though!! i don't street drink really. i left that behind when i gave up drinking stones green ginger in parks

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I've found that, even now, if you're desperate for a late night drink there's always places you can go to, I could have gone to the Jolly Butchers in Stokey last night till 2.30-3am but chose not to.

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

yep and if you're determined to drink there's usually *something* at home that will suffice.... the generic brand baileys your auntie left at your house, cooking sherry, the expensive bottle of red you'd laid down etc etc

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Meths with paint residue in...

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

mmmmmm metho mmmmmm straight from the plastic bottle with poison on the side mmmm

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Nail varnish remover (is this alcoholic? Who cares).

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

it doesn't matter when you're that pissed, you'll convince yourself that vanilla essence is drinkable and boozy

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not convinced the earlier closing = people rush their drinks thing holds water. I tend to have a speed at which I drink which stays largely constant no matter how long I have left and I suspect a lot of other people are the same. Maybe the last pint is a bit rushed but that's it.

Later closing would probably mean I'd arrive at the pub later, especially on a Friday when it gives a little more time to sit down, eat dinner at a relaxed pace etc. I'm sure plenty of people would still pour straight from office to pub though (something I enjoy doing less and less these days).

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i think the dinner thing might make a difference as well. i never used to go out until 9 at the earliest, but it's silly to go out that late, unless you're going to a club.

but i liked it because i could sit down and have a nice dinner, relax after work, before going out. (i didn't drink then, but stayed out late in bars, and friends i'd meet would have had dinner as well)

dinner seems like it would help a bit with keeping people a bit more sober, i think.

― colette (a2lette), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Possible consequences of late opening:

Sales of pub food could decrease if more people eat at home.
This would probably be offset by more drinks being bought.
Public transport would need to be much better, or at least run later.
The Spanish Bar would close and the Hairy Man would be unable to feed and clothe his Hairy Children.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I cannot really see the issue of late licensing. I mean - we basically already have it in Edinburgh with pubs open till 3am if they choose to be. It effects very little from what I can tell. Well - I can meet friends at the pub later than I would in England (9.30-10pm is pretty standard) and go for a few beers.

The problem is when you have found yourself out till 2am on a worknight...

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Liz: I think people would tend to get to the pub later and enjoy a more relaxed time, not having to cram enough pints in to feel socially ept enough to dance at whatever club was happening after.

Matt: Later closing would probably mean I'd arrive at the pub later

Colette, this was the point I'm making. I like being able to get home and I like my sleep. My quality of life is, IMHO, increased by the current licensing laws.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Public transport in London is already good

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

So, Markelby, you believe legislation should be kept in place so you can get your 8 hours?

(x-post)

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah i was going to say.... i see your point but that consideration shouldn't necessarily deny other drinkers the opportunity to drink late

― gem (trisk), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

that's the thing. i think you're a sensible enough person to say 'oh, it's nearly 12, i should go home now,' mark.

i'd just like to have the ability to have a choice of whether to stay out or go home, and not have somewhat sketchy places or members clubs be the only options for late night drinking.

xpost

― colette (a2lette), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't said anything about legislation, I'm just saying how it might affect me. I don't like the European attitude of going out at 11pm and coming home at 4am, and I'd rather it didn't happen here. It's a waste of life.

Colette, was I not clear? If I have to leave at 12 but the fucking thing doesn't START until 10.30 then yes, I miss out.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

So what if the limits were only in place on school nights?

― Simon (flameproof) (Flameproof), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Look, I'm not all that bothered! I get annoyed when people can't be bothered to turn up to things on time - that's only going to get worse as people shuffle along to FAPs at 12.30.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

haha

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I think everyone in Britain should be compelled to go out at 11 pm and come home at 4 am.

I mean, the current system of going out at 7 am and coming home at 7 pm, having spent the intermediate hours travelling to, doing our crappy, pointless jobs, and travelling home again, isn't exactly creating a nation of gaiety is it?

9 to 5. Servile serfs to capitalism. Now that's what I call a waste of life.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

last friday's fap felt a bit like a fap in two stages - as a lot of people left around 8 leaving just ken, marianna and emily for a short while before a new wave of people turned up around 9

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't see how any legislation would stop anyone from making early social arrangements. Mark is right, not everyone wants to stay out until 2am and not everyone will, change of legislation or no change of legislation. London isn't suddenly going to turn into Andalucia overnight in terms of drinking culture because its so embedded in the way we go about things here. But there's nothing wrong with offering people a bit of flexibility, surely?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Were you observing this from the next table, with mackintosh and paper with eye-holes cut out, Steve?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I could have gone to the Jolly Butchers in Stokey last night till 2.30-3am but chose not to.

Unless the Jolly Butchers has changed a lot since I was there, this was never a very appealing option.

Good thing about Stoke Newington - loads of the pubs have lock-ins anyway.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"i'd like to be able to pop out to buy a bottle of wine at the shop at 1am on a weekend"

Many twenty-four hour shops in London will actually sell you booze illegally at any time. You just have to ask at the counter. I'm sure the police turn a blind eye to it.

― Wooden (Wooden), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

It's like when Clockwork Orange was banned or SMiLE was only available on bootleg; you just went into certain video and record shops, asked to see "the special stuff" a la League of Gentleman butchers shop, paid your £15 and that was it. Everyone turned a blind eye to it.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a big difference between popping round the corner for a bottle and having to go further afield to a sketchy offlicence at night. In any case, a lot of places selling booze after 11 tend to charge over the odds in my experience.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The one near me charges 10p extra for a can of beer, which isn't too bad. I suppose I'm spoiled by it - it's about five minutes from my house.

― Wooden (Wooden), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Or, as has happened in Brighton, enterprising types use a legal loophole which allows them to deliver cases of beer or wine 24 hours a day. Booze Brothers, Booze Bus, Booze Sisters et al.

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

(For an inflated price.)

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Does that work because it counts as wholesale?

― Wooden (Wooden), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh god. What a brilliantly terrible idea. I would abuse that service so much.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Yep, wholesale. You can also buy from some 24 hour shops too, and there is also a pizza place that does the sam

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

last friday's fap felt a bit like a fap in two stages - as a lot of people left around 8 leaving just ken, marianna and emily for a short while before a new wave of people turned up around 9
-- Freelance Hiveminder (stevem7...), October 12th, 2004 1:10 PM. (later)

it was a fap in THREE stages, steve, when we got back to holloway we found a shop at let me buy a bottle of Jim Beam at midnight and so we got pizza and whiskey and watched alan partridge.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's an extract from an article a couple of years ago:

They spoke to lawyers, law courts, the police, the council and the Inland Revenue, to find out whether they could legally sell alcohol after 11pm.

They discovered that, as long as they sold it in multiples, they could get away with it – so customers have to buy a minimum of 24 bottles or cans of beer, a pack of spirits or a case of wine.

They sell them at offlicence prices, without a delivery charge, and have branched out into snacks, bags of ice and cigarettes.

Off licence prices my arse!

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

did you utilise some sort of big plate scam for the pizza?

xpost

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

while sad fuckers like you guys went to BED, EARLY, on a FRIDAY NIGHT, when you could be having fun with people who came all the way from AMERICA, and celebrated dog latin's BIRTHDAY (well if he had TURNED UP).

xpost

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

there is a point of note to that too, that night at the pub, when we accounted for the sad fuckers who had left to go home. we discovered that of all 7 people left at the place (marianna, rob bolton, roxymuzak, ken c, colette, not-c-man, not-c-man's gf), none of us were from england! maybe that's saying something.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

sad fuckers? sorry dude, had another party to go to.

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Rest assured if I'd have been there I'd have stayed to the bitter end

― Derridadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I would have been ecstatic to partake of the Jim Beam if I'd been in London last Friday. Instead I was chillin' with my bloke and mother in Wales, and if that's not rock'n'roll enough, then SCREW YOU, CHU.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i was kidding really. roxymuzak was most offended though that none of you stayed. you could ask her but i don't know if she's talking to you guys anymore.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I was shopping in Oxford Street at about 7 pm and poked my head into the Blue Posts but couldn't see any ILxors (at least, none I recognised) and thus continued on my weary way home on the Northern Line.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 12 October 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Tom, Martin and Mark S were still in the pub by that point. i'm not sure which other ILXors you would recognise tho...

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 15:03 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a valid point.

But admittedly I didn't poke my head in there too deeply.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 13 October 2004 07:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Pubs within railway stations are legally allowed to sell drinks to passengers at any time, but not many of them actually bother.

(and this also applies to train buffets, or refreshment trollies - they can sell booze at any time without a licence)

― caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

more pubs on by platforms please (ala Kew Gardens, if they still have that Firkin)

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

but are they licenced to spill?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

People should just buy hip flasks, there shouldn't be such a stigma about them. It was so cool the day I saw one of my lecturers standing outside his classroom partaking from his hip flask!

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Or I kinda like the idea of the Pimms guy with his picnic hamper, I would start drinking if that was more commonplace.

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

were more, I mean.

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Jel, you know you could be that Pimms guy, if you wanted.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

but does he have teh required breeding?

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

two things:

"but are they licenced to spill?" was funny.

you lot sound like a bunch of dipsos.

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 12:49 (twenty-one years ago)

i think my main problem with hip flasks (and, really, with the whole early license thing) is that i'm pretty terrible at planning ahead. sure, i could keep several bottles of wine and some bouze in my kitchen, in anticipation of the shops stopping selling at 11. and i could fill up my hip flask (although i really can't imagine me doing that)

but it just never occurs to me, and i like to have the option to do that at the moment when i decide i want it.

although, if i had a pimms hamper that included a record player as well, i'd be prepared all the time. woo.

― colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm just happy that i've finally found a shop near my home that would provide late night booze service.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

you lot sound like a bunch of dipsos.

They're lovely people really (glug, glug, glug)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Bah, they've disabled white writing.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Lot of good it'll do me now.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

that's not my problem is it?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Smug bastards.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I could just about pass as posh, if required.

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

try living in Dublin, you're all spoiled. etc.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

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