Taxi For Berti Vogts! Scotland Humiliated Yet Again.

I don't think that's true, in fact I just heard Brown on Radio Scotland admit that he had significantly better players (he listed some of them). But Brown WAS working with significantly worse players than Roxburgh, who was working with worse players than Stein and so on.

I don't think Berti should stay, but I have some sympathy for him. When world class players cost tens of millions we have a couple of semi-decent players that are worth a million or two and a bunch of guys who'd cost a couple of hundred thousand at most.

Why did Scotland stop producing decent footballers? When I was a kid some Scots sports journos used to claim that per thousand of population we produced more good players than any other country in the world. Probably not true, but not obviously absurd. In the post-Dalglish era I don't think we've produced a single obviously international quality striker for example. In the same period Wales, with less than half our population, no domestic league, no major clubs (at least we have two) and a lower interest in the game have produced at least 6 (plus Michael Owen). The Irish, formerly Home Championship whipping boys for the "big two" of England and Scotland (hard to believe that was EVER true) and the Scandinavian countries have also produced much better players than us. It's gone on for too long to just be a bad patch or coincidence. Judging by attendance at Old Firm games interest in the game is still as high as ever - the percentage of the Scottish population who attend football matches is the highest in Europe (except for one of the really tiny countries, Cyprus from memory). Our inability to produce a single really outstanding player since the days of Dalglish, Hansen, Souness, Strachan, Miller, McLeish, Gemmell, Jordan etc really is baffling.

no easy games in European football anymore, unless you're playing Luxembourg or San Marino

Didn’t the Scottish Parliament or Scottish Office recently launch some official investigation on how Scandinavian countries with worse climates, a less developed professional game and smaller populations have managed to succeed in producing better players?

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/officialReports/meetingsParliament/or-04/sor0211-02.htm

As for the dearth of talent in Scottish football, well, I think that there's been no focus at grassroots level on youth development. Most of the money in the scottish game in the last twenty years has been spent on stadium development and on paying first team wages.
It also didn't help that for much of the eighties and early nineties, extracurricular activies (such as football teams) were absent in schools because of long term industrial action by the EIS.
I'm sure there are other reasons there too, but these seem obvious to me.

The quality of the football certainly didn't make it look like the seventies - and I mean 1970s AND 1870s. As for Berti's problems being that the players aren't good enough - well, how good to you have to be to beat Moldova, beat the crappest Norwegian side I've ever seen (and that's saying something), or avoid losing 4-0 to Wales or losing 3-0 AT HOME to Hungary? Craig Brown (who I personally couldn't stand as a manager) didn't really have that many more players to choose from - may I remind you that Scotland played the opening game of the 1998 World Cup with Darren Jackson at centre forward? I don't expect Scotland to necessarily qualify for the finals of major tournaments at this juncture but they've always managed to perform reasonably well at qualifying stages in the past and I have never heard a Scotland manager say, before a game against a piece of shite like Norway, that he'd be happy with a draw. Fuck him. Out. Now.

A good manager can sort that out. Witness what Martin O'Neill at Celtic did with almost the same bunch of players that John Barnes couldn't get past a bunch of part-time sheep-botherers. If someone with a bit of knowledge and whatever else it is that managers have that makes them turn a bunch of journeymen into a capable footballing team can turn Bobby Petta and Didier Agathe into players that top European sides are frightened of, then surely someone can knock players of the calibre that Scotland have into a side capable of coming back from Moldova, Slovenia and Norway with three points.

But they've got to act soon. We might as well write off this qualifying campaign and use the rest of the games to let Gordon Strachan the new manager bed in ready for the next one.

As long as those loyal numpties keep turning up at hampden for games theyw ont do anything. If there was only 2000 fans at the next game then they would give berti the bolt..

It's time we got rid of the SFA,SPL,SFL and had ONE association.
Also bring back the no more than 3 foreign players rule.
It's ridiculous that celtic, rangers and the others have so many non scots players in their team. Thats where the problems lie.

The foreigners argument doesn't seem to stack up, when a country of the same size, like Norway, has most of their players playing abroad anyway. Maybe that's the problem. Too many stay at homes.

Not international class. I doubt any would even be considered for a squad place if they were English, for example. Obviously we can't expect the strength in depth of countries like Italy, Germany etc, but even smaller countries tend to have at least two or three class acts who would get picked wherever they were born. We don't have a single player who's an automatic selection for a really top class club side. (Compare eg Souness, Dalglish, Hansen, arguably the best three players for a club that was the best in Europe at the time.) Moldova had three players last night who were better than anyone we had. That's a country with 35 professional players.

I agree another manager could improve the side, but fear it won't be by much. I hope it's Strachan, but can't see him taking it. I don't rate Walter Smith who seems likely to be asked next. I'd rather have Levein - at least he has a track record of getting good performances out of ordinary players.

Shit - is that true? Wow.

I was going to argue with this, but there's no way Nicky Wire In A Banana Suit could be a worse footballer than Darren Fletcher.

He was very good at Rangers, in fact it's only been this season that he's regained the sort of form he was showing in his last season at Ibrox. A good thing is that Blackburn Rovers are prepared to allow Ferguson to play for Scotland whereas Rangers, true to form, weren't.

It's ridiculous that celtic, rangers and the others have so many non scots players in their team. Thats where the problems lie.

Any more ridiculous than Arsenal or Chelsea?

I've been sorely disappointed by Fletcher. At the start of the season he was getting a regular game for ManYoo. Which suggests he should be head and shoulders above most of the Scotland squad, who are mainly playing at a much lower level or struggling to get a game for middle-ranking clubs. His Scotland performances have gone from highly promising youngster to mediocre to deservedly substituted on Wednesday. I also notice he's drifted out of the ManYoo side now. I fear he's going to be one of those guys who never fulfils the promise that he seemed to have at 17. I really hope I'm wrong.

He was very good at Rangers, in fact it's only been this season that he's regained the sort of form he was showing in his last season at Ibrox.

Agreed, Ferguson was the outstanding player at Ibrox in the year or two before he left. We can all poke fun at Rangers (and obviously should, mercilessly and often) but if some of their misfiring foreigners turned up Scottish grannies they'd still walk into the Scotland team.

The depressing thing is that if you go back to the days of Souness, Strachan, Bett, Gemmell, Dalglish etc and it would have needed a few injuries before Ferguson even got a game (for a team that wasn't exactly overachieving, even then). Whereas now he's just about our only semi-credible player.

The last good player Scotland had was John Collins - well, the last one who actually performed well at international level to be precise. McAllister was a good player but never for Scotland.

The Scottish Football Association's board is likely to call a meeting for Monday to consider the post of the national manager.

BBC Sport believes it is a question of when and not if the SFA parts company with the German.

It follows three World Cup qualifiers without a win for Scotland and little prospect of reaching the 2006 finals.

Wednesday's 1-1 draw with Moldova means Vogts' side have little hope of qualifying for the 2006 finals.

SFA chief executive David Taylor has publicly insisted that there will be no immediate announcement on the manager's future.

We're not in the market to be looking for a manager
SFA chief executive David Taylor
"I spoke briefly to Berti after the game and I expect to speak to him over the next few days," said Taylor, whose own position could be under threat if he does not act quickly to dispose of Vogts.

"We will sit down in the cold light of day and examine where we are and so that's what we are going to do.

"We're not in the market to be looking for a manager.

"Change for change's sake is never a great policy. Any change is on the basis that someone new would get more out of the resources at our disposal."

Taylor has always backed the German under intense criticism from the media during Vogts' two-and-a-half-year stewardship of the national team.

"The resources in terms of the depth of the squad we have available at the moment are very limited," he said.

Surely what we have to do now is get rid of Berti
From Chainey
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"It's a difficult job as not only Berti will tell you, but others that are involved in football management.

"We are three games into 10 and very few teams are knocked out after three games and we haven't been, but it would take some very, very good results to pull back from this position.

"It is arithmetically possible, but to start with two draws and one of them against Moldova and the other match being a defeat, it leaves us behind our competitors.

"It is obviously much more difficult now, but it is not impossible. Three matches in, it was not the start we were looking for.

"It was not the start the manager was looking for. The manager is as disappointed as anyone else."

But they aren't English, so that's a totally pointless argument. And what the hell does "international class" mean anyway? It's one of the most over-used, easily-muddled and downright nonsensical phrases in world football. I doubt any of the Moldovans, Norwegians or Hungarians who have made us look woefully inadequate in recent weeks are your definition of "international class" and wouldn't get into, say, the England squad either. Their teams still function better than ours. Belarus, for example, still managed to put three past Italy the other night, and I'd struggle to name one of their squad.

We don't have a country full of Zidanes and Ronaldos, we know that. What we do have is a bunch of decent, hard-working guys, some of who can hold their own in the Premiership, who should be able to get results against some other teams.

Re. Barry Ferguson.

in fact it's only been this season that he's regained the sort of form he was showing in his last season at Ibrox.

He only left a year and a half ago. He hardly had time to lose his form by your reckoning before suddenly and impressively re-finding it.

Sad thing is that there is now no chance of getting a foreign coach in again so we will be left with inexperienced Strachan, Walter smith, paul sturrock, gary mcallister(who used to (unfairly) get booed while playing, so he wont be popular) or god forbid, the worst of them all Alex Smith or Alex Miller.

Strachan seems to be the fans choice , some say George Graham because he would at least sort out the defence.

Who the hell has even suggested Alexes Smith and Miller anyway?

Strachan or Walter Smith would seem the obvious choices, given that they aren't otherwise engaged at the moment. Er, can we have Craig Brown back* now he's a man of leisure?

Surely a new manager will put more bums on seats in Hampden than Berti will, hence raking in mega bucks. It won't cost a million to boot Berti anyway, will it?

Bonhof will get a whopping severance pay too.

Who's including him in all this?

(*JOKE, by the way)

It's a bit rich to criticise "international class" as too vague when your preferred term is "decent enough". My nephew is a "decent enough" player for his local primary team. It doesn't mean he could do a job for Scotland. In discussing whether players are good or bad at international level the only meaningful grounds for comparison are other international players.

I tried to be at least a bit more precise about what I meant - players:

who would get picked [for their national side] wherever they were born

Now this isn't perfect, I agree but it's a reasonable working definition.

I use England as an example because they are the team we know best. I don't think a single Scottish player would get a game for England. I don't think any would even make it into the England squad. That is not a "pointless argument". It is an illustration of our lack of quality. Twenty years ago, it would have been inconceivable to my father or granfather's generation that the quality of our players, relative to England's, could ever sink so low.

We know we don't produce many Ronaldos. But until the past 10 or 15 years we have had, at any one time, 3 or 4 player who would have realistically expected to collect a few caps even if they had been born in one of he major footballing countries. Most of the other second and third tier footballing countries, the ones we think we are being "realistic" in thinking of as our peers, the ones we have to finish above to qualify for the finals of international tournaments, are still doing that.

It would be nice to have a more competent coach, but won't change the fundamental fact that he doesn't have the players to work with.

So basically, 'international class' = 'at least as good as the worst player in the Brazilian side'.

Strictly speaking, isn't Southamption FC a higher level than Scotland?

I get the feeling Smith wont put himself forward for the job BUT will accept it if offered(thats just the way he is) Same for George Graham.

Best candidates are the ones who won't touch the job with a bargepole and have great jobs at Man Utd and Newcastle. Souness and Ferguson would at least kick some arse.

It's a shame we wont have another foreign coach. Someone like Hiddink or Bora Milatinovic(sp?) could do a great job.

Scotland's current squad are as "international class" as we have got, I'm afraid. And I don't think they are any worse than some that have gone before them. I seem to be alone in this though.

(multiple x posts)

See when I said all that, I meant, except I didn't phrase it quite so succintly, is that a decent international team should be better than the sum of their parts. And that's where a decent manager comes in. I did say that up there somewhere ("The blame is fairly and squarely on the manager who can't get a bunch of decent-ish players to play as a decent-ish team"), and no amount of bleating that Nigel Quashie wouldn't get a game for England is going to alter my view that.

I'd like to thank Kheredine Idessane on Sportsound yesterday for the phrase "better than the sum of their parts", by the way.

Commitments in European competition for some SFA board members will delay a crisis meeting.

"A committee meeting is planned for 4 November but we want to bring that date forward," said SFA chief executive David Taylor.

"We could arrange a conference call between the directors but that would be inappropriate for this discussion."

BBC Sport believes it is a question of when and not if the SFA parts company with the German.

It follows three World Cup qualifiers without a win for Scotland and little prospect of reaching the 2006 finals.

Board members Campbell Ogilvie, Eric Riley and Chris Robinson are all away with Rangers, Celtic and Hearts respectively this week in the Champions League and Uefa Cup.

I don't know if Berti has support among the board. That's why we need an exchange of opinions
David Taylor
SFA chief executive
And Taylor insists any decision on Vogts' future must be taken with all 11 board members present.

"We need every board member present and must act in a proper manner," added Taylor.

"The manager's future is not solely down to me. The situation will be reviewed by the board of directors.

"I can't predict the outcome of the board meeting.

"I don't know if Berti has support among the board. That's why we need an exchange of opinions.

"We have undoubtedly fallen behind to qualify for the World Cup but we're not out of it yet.

"I understand a few of the Tartan Army are concerned about the situation and believe we should change the manager."

BBC Sport also believes that Taylor will retain the support of his board if he acts quickly to dismiss Vogts.

Surely what we have to do now is get rid of Berti
From Chainey
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Despite a string of poor results under Vogts during his two-and-a-half year tenure, Taylor insists the German was the right man for the job from the candidates to succeed Craig Brown.

Taylor added: "When we recruited Berti it was not an easy task.

"The others on the short list were Philippe Troussier, Bruce Rioch and Nevio Scala.

"They were the best candidates available and Berti was clearly the best of them.

"Suggestions that others were available whom we didn't approach irritate me because they are not true.

"We started with a long list and whittled that down. The suggestion we were determined to appoint a foreign coach is absolutely not true.

"We set out to find the best manager we could from the candidates available - and that's what we did.

"It hasn't put me off going for another foreigner if the position becomes vacant again.

"But we have a manager and should not be speculating on replacements."

(Yes, this line of argument is very annoying and is already becoming tricky to use, but hey, lets get the mileage out of it while it lasts...)

The 57-year-old resigned from his post on Monday, blaming the abuse he suffered from a minority of fans and a media witch-hunt.

"I am open to anything, but I will not return to the dug-out," he said, adding that he paid for others' past mistakes.

"Nobody has understood what I wanted to do and my experiences in Scotland have robbed me of my energy."

Vogts suffered poor results during his two-and-a-half year tenure.

But he added: "I have had enough of being the scapegoat for mistakes made in Scotland 15 years ago.

"I was trying to build up something new out of the footballing ruins.

"There are hardly any Scots playing in big European leagues. Where should I have picked star players?

"Most journalists and fans live in the past. They have not realised that Scotland is not the footballing nation it used to be."