My god -- Robert George has just ripped George W. a new one

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Register if you have to -- it's at The New Republic site -- but read it.

Context? Here's a canned Robert George bio from NYU:

Robert A. George is currently Associate Editorial Page Editor for the New York Post. He writes several editorials a week on a diverse array of social and political topics and occasional op-eds. He is also a columnist for National Review Online and a regular CNN contributor.


Previously, Mr. George served as Director of Coalitions for the Republican National Committee. Reporting to the RNC Co-chairman, he acted as Party liaison to diverse business, ethnic and interest groups.


From January 1995 through May 1998, Mr. George served as Special Assistant and Senior Writer to the Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives
(note from Ned -- yes, Newt Gingrich). His responsibilities included drafting speeches, talking points, letters and press releases, as well as drafting and placing newspaper opinion and commentary articles.

And what does he have to say in the TNR piece? His conclusion, to give you a taste:

It would be wonderful to believe the president's promise that the war in Iraq will lead to democracy in a troubled region. An immigrant--I was born in the West Indies--tends to absorb the earnest, spiritual myths of his adopted nation even more than those native-born. Democracy is indeed a human value. But initiating a war to "liberate" an entire region far from our shores can hardly be called a conservative cause. It will be impossible to restrain a government kept on a permanent war footing. And, in liberty's name abroad, liberty at home will inevitably be compromised. It already has been. 


No, a Kerry administration would not be any conservative's ideal. But, on limited government, a Democratic president would, arguably, force a Republican Congress to act like a Republican Congress. The last such combination produced some form of fiscal sanity. And, when it comes to accountability, one could hardly do worse. Of course, a conservative can still cast a libertarian vote on principle. 


At crucial points before and after the Iraq war, Bush's middle managers have failed him, and the "brand" called America has suffered in the world market. In any other corporate structure plagued by this level of incompetence, the CEO would have a choice: Fire his middle managers or be held personally accountable by his shareholders. Because of his own misguided sense of "loyalty," Bush won't dismiss anyone. That leaves the country's shareholders little choice.

And over at the National Review, Jonah Goldberg can but heave a sigh. How much you wanna bet he even vaguely constructively responds?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude just wants to get his name in Doonesbury.

manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, seriously, this is 'knives out' stuff at this point. I wonder if more such pieces are forthcoming?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:20 (twenty-one years ago)

At crucial points before and after the Iraq war, Bush's middle managers have failed him, and the "brand" called America has suffered in the world market. In any other corporate structure plagued by this level of incompetence, the CEO would have a choice: Fire his middle managers or be held personally accountable by his shareholders. Because of his own misguided sense of "loyalty," Bush won't dismiss anyone. That leaves the country's shareholders little choice.

OMG!!! LOL! It's the new Marxism.

Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:21 (twenty-one years ago)

looks like "fiscal sanity" has become a meme...

Sir Kingfish Beavis D'Azzmonch (Kingfish), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd have to agree. I think that is going to be where a lot of conservative voters are going to hang their hat publically in increasing numbers.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:35 (twenty-one years ago)

He's right of course. Except about how Bush won't fire anyone out of a sense of loyalty. The reason he won't fire anyone is because *he's* the employee.

Smokin' funk by the boxes (kenan), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahah. Hey, smoke and mirrors.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, except from the tenor of things, I'd say they were smoking crank.

Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 15 October 2004 04:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Not enough people have read this and I am sad.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not a libertarian, but I think that someone who really cares about fiscal conservatism or deficits would vote for Kerry. Bush has not vetoed a single bill! He is the first president since John Quincy Adams to have made it through a term without a single veto. The surest way to stop ballooning federal spending is to have a divided government. As long as Congress remains in GOP hands, the only way to achieve that is to put a Democrat in the White House.

o. nate (onate), Friday, 15 October 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Unfortunately, The New Republic and National Review only hit their respective choirs. In middle America, or Pennsylvania, these guys would get blank stares. So what they do is easy: write editorials for people like themselves, who read DC-centric pubs. And for every one of those, their is something in the Washington Times or the Wall Street Journal op-ed page or syndicated by Max Boot as anti-matter for their duplicates on the other side.

What I have trouble following is the rubbish on undecided voters. Every one of them I see interviewed on TV impresses me as someone who is either a lip-service Republican or someone working up the gumption to invoke some dumb reason not to vote, or a combination of the two.

George Smith, Friday, 15 October 2004 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if more such pieces are forthcoming?

There'll be a torrent of them if Bush loses (or if it becomes obvious that he'd going to). Otherwise, not many.

frankiemachine, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

For a moment I thought this was Bobby George the darts player.

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

In middle America, or Pennsylvania, these guys would get blank stares.

Not to sound flippant, but you're saying that nobody there would bother to think about it if they read it, or can't in the first place?

(The Max Boot mention makes me think I believe I read somewhere he's also not voting Bush, though.)

There'll be a torrent of them if Bush loses (or if it becomes obvious that he'd going to). Otherwise, not many.

Here's to the torrent, then.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

At this point, I don't think many would be moved either way. What I'm getting at is my belief that most people long ago made up their minds. And their opinion was shaped by their underlying allegiances and what they choose to believe or not believe with regards to the war. So even if something like this piece were read from one of the network news broadcasts at 6:00, half would say, "Look, it's the work of the Devil, Dan Rather and his cronies," and the other half would say, "Look, see, a Republican who even thinks George W. Bush is the Devil."

Lots of things have no immediately apparent impact at this stage. What did the Duelfer report do? Largely, it was interpreted as a big zero for the Bush administration by the media. But the Wall Street Journal subsequently ran an editorial by a member of Duelfer's team who was righteously enraged that no one saw that what the Iraq Survey Group really found was that Hussein and him minions were still cooking up schemes to attack America. And that he had to be removed and the war was justified. Now, I've read the report and this is a very singular interpretation of it, but one generated from the inside.

It would not surprise me then that for the people who will vote for Bush, the Duelfer report's findings that Hussein had nothing and that the intelligence agencies worked from a great deal of fraudulent and mistaken information, has no traction. While those on the left hold it up as definitive proof that the war was based on lies, which is what I happen to believe.

Pages and pages can be written, and people infer from them based on what their groupthink is right now.

George Smith, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Raggett, I saw a poll today saying Bush is ahead by 4%.

Is that significant? Does it worry you?

the bluefox, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Can someone copy and paste the George article here? I hate registering for these things.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 15 October 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

What I'm getting at is my belief that most people long ago made up their minds.

I very much agree, but I like the cognitive dissonance that results nonetheless in situations like these -- even if individual (and there are a couple of individuals I'll be passing this on to in particular). I note Goldberg hasn't said anything further on the blog or anywhere else apparently -- now, he could still be working on some sort of cohesive response, but I like the idea that he doesn't have one (so he probably shouldn't have said anything to start with).

The polls? I shrug at the polls. The only thing that will matter is what's on the day.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

That's a really good article, thanks Ned. I've annoyingly quoted some of it to comment on:

Speaking about the war on terrorism as the GOP convention kicked off, Bush told Matt Lauer on the "Today" show, "I don't think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world." The White House immediately backpedaled from Bush's apparent gaffe, saying this was just a variation of what the president has always said--that the war on terrorism is a "different kind of war." But, as a former editor of this magazine, Michael Kinsley, once stated, "A gaffe is when a politician tells the truth." And that's just what Bush was doing.

I don't have much to say about this except that he is absolutely correct.

Ashcroft was essentially asserting that Congress--whose oversight powers give it authority to demand accountability from the executive--should not be allowed to inquire about the quality of legal advice being given to the president.

This bit interests me because it's exactly the same problem we have had in Britain; parliament gave Blair authority to go to war, but Blair refuses to let parliament know what legal advice was recieved and from whom he sought it, apart from the Lord Advocate. We have to take Blair's and the Lord Advocate's word that it was legal, but not be told how they came to that decision.

For the 40 years of the cold war, the United States held off a Soviet enemy that had the power to destroy the country several times over--yet civil liberties were never curtailed to the extent they are now.

I wasn't particularly convinced by this - though I'm sure it's true that civil liberties are being removed on a greater scale than ever before, the execution of the rosenbergs and the anti-communist withc hunts were not shining examples of liberty.

"The very core of liberty secured by our Anglo-Saxon system of separated powers has been freedom from indefinite imprisonment at the will of the Executive," concludes Scalia.

Obviously George never said this, only quoted it, and I only quote it because the use of Anglo-Saxon in this context mekes me nervous. Partly, of course, because Britain's seperation of power is quite different from the US'.

It is cold comfort that the furthest left and the furthest right justices on the Court are the ones arguing most vigorously about the dangers of an unchecked executive.

And, I think it's entirely what you should expect, and not just from the extremes, which I guess is the point of the artice. The things Bush is doing are things which any conservative worth their salt should be opposing. Okay, the Left maybe has a few extra problems with him (tax cuts for the rich, for example), but there are plenty of things he has done which have been considered a really bad idea by almost everyone in recent history, or at least and indication of bad government. Running up incredible debts, destroying the legal framework of your nation, sending troops unprepared and unecessarily into battle etc. - these are not things conservatives, or indeed anyone, should be supporting.

On a happier note, I was talking to some family friends of mine a few days ago (The father is a Reverend, and he was placed at a church in my town for a few years, and I went to school with the son.), they have been lifelong republicans (socially liberal, economically conservative) and the son said he is going to vote for Kerry, and the father said, while he's not sure he can bring himself to vote for Kerry, he certainly won't vote for Bush. So that cheered me up no end. As for whether articles like this will sway people, probably not, a least not those who are not politically active because they might never read them. But right wing thinkers might be swayed. Who knows...

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 15 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Polls don't move me, either. The daily floods of them reveal the people concocting them to be, at best, totally witless.

George Smith, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex - go to BugMeNot.com; they probably have a logon you can use for TNR.com in lieu of giving TNR any of your personal information.

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 15 October 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

For the 40 years of the cold war, the United States held off a Soviet enemy that had the power to destroy the country several times over--yet civil liberties were never curtailed to the extent they are now

The analogy doesn't go far enough. The war on terror, and the war on Iraq, have been passed to the polity as something that is similar to the threat posed by total nuclear annihilation. The Soviet Union's arsenal could do such a thing, Hussein didn't have anything like that power and certainly al Qaida does not.

Yet the government has been successful in convincing many people that they have a great deal to fear, perhaps more to fear than they did during the Cold War. The obsession with security and safety at every level that now exists most definitely did not exist during the Cold War.

This is the triumph of the current administration. It has been successful, along with the media, in turning this belief into a religion. And it's a religion, practically speaking, is based almost entirely only on one very bad day and thin air.

No one knows how to deal with it.

George Smith, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=19&u=/ap/20041015/ap_on_el_pr/persuadable_voters

the bellefox, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned Raggett - he shrugs at the polls, and chuckles nonchalantly at the visage of peril.

the bluefox, Friday, 15 October 2004 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks Dave. It worked.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 15 October 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

One heevahave: "I probably won't decide until I actually vote."

Translation: "If it rains, I'm staying home because I'm made of sugar and might melt in the rain. Heck, I'll probably stay home, anyway."

Heevahava #2: "Kerry is too liberal and Bush is too conservative and never the twain shall meet. We should have 'neither of the above' and try it again."

Translation: "Nothing's going to keep me from the two drink happy hour specials and pool at Dennahy's."

George Smith, Friday, 15 October 2004 15:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned Raggett - he shrugs at the polls, and chuckles nonchalantly at the visage of peril.

Trust me, my friend, my sense of black humor has helped keep me sane in a mad world. And yet I still have particularly strong beliefs that I do and will stand for.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 15 October 2004 15:04 (twenty-one years ago)

The article linked by the pinefox quotes somebody from La Follette! How do they dig these people up?

It also includes this remarkable quote from an Arizona octogenarian: "'I listen to Rush Limbaugh when I'm in my car,' she said. 'We can only get one radio station really clear around here. It's so negative. I never heard a good thing about Kerry.'"

But she said she liked the Kerry she saw in the debates.

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Friday, 15 October 2004 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, that was funny. Even I thought so, and I have never heard Rush L. I have heard Ian Rush, sometimes.

the bluefox, Friday, 15 October 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

"Fiscal sanity". I love this phrase.

Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Friday, 15 October 2004 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)


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