The Russian Duma votes for ratifying the Kyoto agreement.

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Moscow lauded for ratifying Kyoto

This is good news, even thought it probably has more to to do with political machinations than with Russia being wholeheartedly pro-environment. Anyway, the precondition for The Kyoto agreement to come into effect is that it needs to cover at leat 55% of the greenhouse gas emissions in the world, and Russia's reluctance to ratify the agreement was the one thing stopping this. Now the agreement should come into effect next year, 8 years after the Kyoto conference.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that USA and Australia still don't want to join the agreement; USA is by far the largest source of greenhouse gases in the world. That is why I wanted to ask, do any of you Americans have any knowledge on John Kerry's views on the Kyoto agreement? If he wins the election, would his government be more willing to join it than Bush's was?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 10:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, in the long run this is probably a far more important issue than Iraq is.


Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

let's hope so.

RJG (RJG), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone on the radio was talking about how global warming was a bigger threat than terrorism and I was like "Well of course it bloody is!" and then I realised that from the media you wouldn't think so.

Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:35 (twenty-one years ago)

And I'd have to include ILE in that.

Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same. Has Kerry mentioned his views on enviromental issues anytime during his campaign? Gore seems to have been quite an environmentalist, at least judging from that book he wrote, but I have no idea about Kerry.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

both sides almost totally silent re environment i believe

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Silent Fall.

Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, it's not like Bush needs to clarify his views on the environment, they became quite clear when dropped off the Kyoto agreement. It's Kerry I'm more interested in. Has the Democratic Party any sort of environmental policy?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I believe it was mentioned in one of the debates - Kerry said something about working with the world, honouring international agreements etc. And Bush guessed that was a reference to Kyoto, and said he made the decision he thought was best for the US. I believe Kerry then said he wouldn't have signed it either, but wouldn't have walked away - he would have stayed and negotiated, rather than losing 4 or so years of the worlds work. I don't know if this is a good sing or not - it's certainly better.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't know about Australia's non-ratification of Kyoto. Why, I wonder?

MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, if he said he wouldn't have signed the agreement, it sounds pretty bad actually. I mean, he shouldn't honour the agreement just because he wants to keep good relations with the EU or the internationa community, he should honour it because it's fucking important for the long-term benefit of both Americans and the rest of the world.

(x-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't know about Australia's non-ratification of Kyoto. Why, I wonder?

We are cunts.

edward o (edwardo), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

No, Australia's non-ratification is on exactly the same basis as the Americans.

All either party want is for either the "developing countries" to be covered by the protocol, or for the target to be linked to GDP. Based on current estimates and rates of production, India will overtake the USA in gross production of said gasses within 20 years - yet they are not included in the protocol. Neither are China, who are huge producers and are increasing at a similar level. Why is this?

Interestingly, Australia are one of only two countries (Iceland are the other) who are supposed to increase their gas production under Kyoto, so this isn't as simple an issue as being upset about being 'punished'.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"The fact is that the Kyoto treaty was flawed"..."This president didn't try to fix it. He just declared it dead, ladies and gentlemen, and we walked away from the work of the 160 nations over 10 years. The president's done nothing to try to fix it. I will."

It clearly isn't just about developing nations either. Even a revised Kyoto Protocol would not be expected to get through the senate, though pleasingly McCain apparently supports the protocol (how long til he realises he is in the wrong party?). One of the reasons for exempting developing nations is that they couldn't afford to comply with the protocol without putting their nations is serious danger. The objection the US has is that they would have to roll back levels to their 1990 level (never mind the annoying use of 'roll back' - reduce would do just as well. The timeline of history doesn't have to be an ever increasing emission of pollutants) and this would damage business. It goes against free market principles, and anyway, the right just doesn't believe in the 'greenhouse effect' or anything else that will cost them money.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, and the Russian volte-face is linked to a "recalculation" of the amount of Carbon Credits it will get. A similar "recalculation" applied to the US would mean it would already pass the pre-1990 test without having to do any additional work.

The only countries who have made any progress at all against Kyoto targets are ones with economies that have collapsed (such as the constituent parts of the former USSR) or have invested heavily in nuclear power (such as Japan).

Which one would you prefer your own country to adopt?

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Saturday, 23 October 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

The Kyoto protocol covers both the developed and the developing countries. There hasn't been any talk yet about the developing countries cutting their emissions because they aren't even close to our level yet. Obviously, as Aldo points out, this issue *will* become relevant in the future. But at this point trying to impose strict environmental regulations on the developing countries is a bit early, for a couple of reasons:

*At the moment, many developing countries have no resources to impose or regulate the treaty anyway.

*Whenever environmental issues in the developing countries are brought up by the industrialized countries of the North, the developing countries accuse the North of being hypocritical: they've gotten rich by exploiting their own environment as well as the developing contries themselves - yet now they they want to restrict the countries of the South from developing the same way they did. Obviously this argument is not altogether rational, but it's a very touchy issue in North-South relationship.

What I'm trying to say is that, at this point the developed countries of North - who still produce the vast majority of the world's pollution - need to set an example instead of hurling the accusations back on the developing countries. When the pollution levels of the South start to come even close of our levels (as they undoubtedly will), then the argument for them reducing pollution comes more valid. We don't live in an ideal world, so we have to settle for political compromises.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, I also believe the decision was made thinking about 'historical' damage - that the main polluters for the past couple of centuries have been Europe and the US, and recently industrialised nations haven't even come close to meeting those levels.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Aldo, to answer your question: at some point in the future, we all need cut the amount of stress we place on the environment. It doesn't necessarily mean that our economy will collapse because of that, but our way of living *needs* to become more sustainable. If that means giving up some of the luxuries we have at the moment, hell, I'm ready to do it. The alternative is much scarier.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I was on the U Bahn here in Berlin today and there are TV screens with news headlines. One came up with a photo of a smiling Kerry. The headline was about the Kyoto protocol, and it seemed to be saying that Kerry had made a statement -- post the Russian announcement to sign up -- that was positive about Kyoto, perhaps even promised to sign up for it. But I can't find any mention of this story on Google News. The official line from Kerry is that he doesn't commit himself to signing the Kyoto protocol.

Momus (Momus), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry Wins Fans Abroad with Global Warming Plan.

Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry - that's not really the story Momus thought he saw. Still no indication that Kerry will sign up, but I just thought it was relevant.

Whether Bush or Kerry, Kyoto must do without the US, too.

Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 October 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Has Kerry mentioned his views on enviromental issues anytime during this campaign?

He has for political purposes in Michigan.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Saturday, 23 October 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)


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