when it comes to relationships and going on the pull, how useful can the advice of "conventionally attractive" people really be for people who aren't?

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yeah yeah predictable response of "attractiveness is in how you act, how self-confident you are, et cetera" but that's if not bullshit at least partly not true [and would make a few of us at least into exactly the people we don't want to be]. i guess i'm just frustrated that on ILX [and maybe in the world in general?] there's no acknowledgement of what i think for many of us is the lurking truth in our romantic lives, that physically we just. don't. have. much. to. offer. and that for 98 percent of the people we might be attracted to, anything between them and us would be for them in some basic sense an overlooking, a massive compromise, a willingness to accept a 4.5/10. i'm not pretending i haven't had relationships with people who [through some miracle] did want what i had, physically, but jesus, they seem few and far between.

so i guess i'm just wishing for some way to better grapple with this sinking feeling that, in this case, the deck is stacked against me [hello paranoia!], or [maybe this puts it better] that any specific explanation of my dating woes to this semi-anonymous group of interweb folks would [instead of eliciting a bunch of theorizing on how i might better pull] be better served by simply putting up a picture by way of reminder: "oh," you would say, and think to yourselves most likely, "well, good luck with that..."

[what are the genuinely ugly people, the people whose faces look like mistakes, supposed to do then, folks?]

[[response predictions, in no particular order: "waaah waaah some people are more attractive than others cry me a river and DEAL with it", "you need to learn to act like [a drag queen]/[a stockbroker]/[a sex and the city character]/[a sociopath]", "[vague expression of sympathy from comfortably long-term partnered member of ILX"], and so on]

[oh wait i forgot one "you have to like yourself before anyone will like you" yeah fine what if i like myself in every way BUT? where is this positive feedback supposed to come from when time and time again promising things suddenly evaporate for no reason, but which seem to revolve around "your body isn't one that i want"?]

[maybe my breath stinks? now that would be a hilarious, slit-your-wrists bit of irony, if all these failures, all these months and years of sadness, could have been avoided if someone had just had the courage to say, "i like you, but we need to get you to a dentist before things can go any further." you never get a second chance to make a first impression, though, and so it's easier for anyone in that situation just to say: NEXT!]

― logged-out animal, Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, I dunno.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't really believe in advice, full stop. It doesn't really matter how pretty the person giving it is.

It doesn't really seem like you're asking for advice. You're just cross and have thought yourself into a corner. So yeah, deal with it, ha ha.

Seriously - you can't really expect anything better then the responses you've already predicted.

Good luck. One day all this will look stupid.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, that pretty much sums it. xpost

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

you need to listen to "Don't Stop Believing"

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Learning to act like a drag queen could be quite fun though.

Multiple X-post what Alba's said is pretty much bang on.

― Matt (Matt), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck that, you need to listen to Foghat Live.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, learning to act like a sociopath could be even more fun.

― Matt (Matt), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

please don't learn to act like a stockbroker.

― paranoia is the hipster's disease (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

are you a hipster?

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

are you small?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

no.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

you?

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

We are a cryptic fog today.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

It's tard code.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

speak, for yourself.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

do you have a spaghetti factory?

― paranoia is the hipster's disease (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I like to imagine that all of the 'logged-out' people are actually the same person, with a life more miserable than mine.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

no.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

you?

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

How come the first thing that occurs to me when I read an anonymous post is to get all Primary Colors and try to decipher who it is by comparing unusual stylistic tendencies or word choice?

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, all of what you've said is true, in terms of going out on the pull, making first impressions, stuff like that. The right answer though isn't one of your predicted ones. It's that when you fall in love with somebody, that magical thing happens where you stop being able to see what they actually look like, and they become beautiful to you anyway. Two of my all time biggest loves were poeple who, when I first met them, weren't particularly pretty at all. But once I knew them, they became stunning (and once I'd got over them, they went back to being meh again too). And, you know, if my brain can make me do that with other people, then it can make other people react the same way to me/you. So how attractive I/you actually am/are doesn't matter that much in the end.

― JimD (JimD), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

my advice is: go to the gym.

don't go to work out, mind (although that might help too, god knows), but rather to observe at all the absolutely stacked gym monkeys as they make love to themselves in the mirror while they push their 12 inch arms to 13. now try and notice how these dudes (almost as a general rule, its uncanny) have fixated on themselves to the point where they've excluded everyone else in the room. instead of being people in the world, its mostly just loving laser beams to the mirror: "me and me and me and ME." now imagine that there are women in the world who, despite the fact that dudes are stacked, might even consider that a bit of a turnoff. then consider the possibility that you, in your own way, are doing this too, and wrongly assuming as a result that its your "average appearance" that's keeping you from the people you want to be meeting as opposed to the more likely possibility that you are too wrapped up in your own neurosis and self-image to notice anybody else in a real and meaningful way.

(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxposts)

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

And, you know, if my brain can make me do that with other people, then it can make other people react the same way to me/you. So how attractive I/you actually am/are doesn't matter that much in the end.

I've got a bit confused there. It's not my brain that makes other people find me attracitve, it's theirs.

― JimD (JimD), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post, personally I don't think I'd ever stop being able to see what someone looks like. many people I've fancied were actually hot.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Or actually, maybe it is mine.

― JimD (JimD), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

alba: fair enough, i suppose. i guess i wasn't so much looking for advice as some sort of impossible synthesis of honesty and hope...also the acknowledging, maybe, that for some people, it's not shyness or this or that, and that the euphemistic quality of [say] "you're just not my type" shields us in an unfortunate way from a realistic appraisal of what we can and can't expect out of life.

xpost and off we go into meaningless meta-land [not that i don't deserve it]

― logged-out animal, Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, I don't think that's shallow either.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

though I do think people can maximise their looks by having a personality which fits them.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I always imagine the logged-outs are the same person, too.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"Do YOU look mousy and quiet? Buy some glasses and shut the FUCK UP!"

― Matt (Matt), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

i enjoy logged outs. they're like ilx blind items.

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't start threads on Sundays.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

haha Matt that's not what I meant, as I'm sure you know. maybe it's a bit strict to say a personality which "fits" them then.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't have a job.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

off we go into meaningless meta-land

Oh, I'm sorry. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're not ugly. I just mean that it's not because of what you look like.

― JimD (JimD), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

my breath doesn't stink

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I though Alba, Jim and Mark P gave some good answers. I can't really add anything myself, as I probably feel sorta the same way, but just shrug it off as one of those things.

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost again why didn't those other posts show up before? i only saw up to the one before jaymc's.

mark p i understand exactly why you posted that and i appreciate that it's a valid response but in a way it's just what's so frustrating to hear because it puts the argument back into the same place it always is (plus i guess i don't mean "average appearance", i mean specifically being to most people unattractive)

ronan in a way is getting at what i'm talking about. depressing but honest.

(jaymc i assume you factor in the possibility that people mess with their styles when posting anon [or maybe they don't haha])

― logged-out animal, Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think you should be depressed about it really, for starters I think the "conventionally attractive" thing is problematic.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

["it puts the argument back into the same place it always is" = "IT'S YOUR FAULT IT'S YOUR FAULT! IF YOU'RE SUFFERING YOU'RE TO BLAME AND NO ONE WANTS TO HELP AND YOU'LL NEVER BE ATTRACTIVE UNTIL YOU'RE HAPPY AND SO HAHAHAHA I GUESS PLAY THE LOTTERY OR SOMETHING D00D"]

― logged-out animal, Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

it doesn't really say it's your fault. it just says you can work to help yourself.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

that's a pretty reductive reading, logged out. there's a huge difference between saying "you'll never be attractive until you're happy" and "maybe you should try and find ways to get out of your head and live in the world a little bit more"

i am now wondering if you're a sadist! i admit there is something comforting about depression.

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 24 October 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

[jimd "meaningless meta-land" wasn't directed at you]

xpost: but ronan what if we've [i've] been working for years? what if the problem is definitely not lack of effort (tho it could cert. be misplaced effort)?

[also: i think people underestimate the extent to which their own attractions are tied to social context and social status indicators, i.e. fear of humiliation for one]

― logged-out animal, Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

NO ONE WANTS TO HELP

It kinda sounds like you don't want anyone to even try to help.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

alba, jim, ronan all otm here. maybe try some CBT or something?! sounds like you've really argued yourself into a corner.

and of course you could always try going to the gym in order to work out. it'll get the endorphins going, even if it does nothing else.

― toby (tsg20), Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

mark p do you mean masochist?

depression isn't comforting so much as it is a way of dealing with the pain and anger of repeated disappointment. and to keep it from turning into abject hatred: i'm trying to not become one of those people who drives home each day screaming "fuck you!" at the world with their windows rolled up.

xpost roxy how about this: what advice would you give to the ugliest person you know? would you tiptoe around their looks or would you start with an open acknowledgement and work from there? i mean jesus we can only do so much eye of the beholder stuff before we come up with someone who everyone can pretty much agree, yeppers, their face makes us wince.

― logged-out animal, Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean jesus we can only do so much eye of the beholder stuff before we come up with someone who everyone can pretty much agree, yeppers, their face makes us wince.

maybe i'm being stupid but i can't actually think of *anyone* with a face like this.

― toby (tsg20), Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Not within my immediate social circle, no

― Matt (Matt), Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:10 (twenty-one years ago)

my best friend's face makes me wince but not in a bad way, I suppose.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 October 2004 15:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 87 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

That's hot.

(x-post)

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 25 October 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the second woman in Momus' post looks far cuter than the first, even the first one wouldn't have those, er, "breasts".

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 25 October 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

There are no physically attractive ~~female~~ music journalists.

...would do just as well...

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

There are no ~~physically~~ attractive ~~female~~ music journalists.

I like this game.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 October 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

The ladies seem to go for Chris Roberts in a big way.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 25 October 2004 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

There are no ~~physically~~ attractive ~~female~~ music journalists.

And Miranda is one of them! I wish I was a popstar so she could lie on my bedroom floor with me. Erm...if the floor wasn't covered in junk.

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't MAKE me dig out Sleeping With The NME...

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

There are music journalists.
There are journalists.
There are.
There.

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

There are no physically ~~attr~~active ~~female~~ music journalists.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

there there

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Every time I see Sawyer's smug grin I just want to wipe it off her face with the aid of a power drill.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 25 October 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

except that's too much physical activity.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone else have this amazing sense of deja vu?

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone else have this amazing sense of deja... vu?

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone else have this amazing sense of ... deja vu?

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

except that's too much physical activity.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

There is this theory of the Moebius where time becomes a loop...

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

...becomes a loop...

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Every time I see Sawyer's smug grin I just want to wipe it off her face with the aid of a power drill.

Argh, you're making me feel all masculine and protective! I'll fight you!!

(Have to admit that yeah, the observer column is horrible, and put me off her quite a bit. And it's not the best picture of her on there. But I can't let go, I've loved her ever since she was at smash hits).

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone ~~else~~ have ~~this amazing~~ sense ~~of deja... vu~~?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

........ becomes a loooooooooooooooooooop .................

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd like to know what Claire Allfree looks like

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

There are no physically attractive female music journalists. They've all got that "I can drink like a docker just as well as any bloke" blokey look about them.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 25 October 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Luckily, I don't read the Observer anymore, so I have not been forced to witness her decline.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I find it increasingly difficult to read the Observer. This is because it now mostly consists of pictures punctured by idiotspeak. Richard Ingrams is the only voice of sanity there.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 25 October 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

when it comes to relationships and going on the pull, how useful can the advice of "conventionally attractive" people really be for people who aren't?

the advice is still useful. but just date someone blind.

seriously like, you probably won't be as successful as someone who is not ugly, but you still go about it the same way. Acting all self-pitiful sure doens't help. Unless.. wait!1

actually go to indie clubs. act all self-pitiful about how ugly you are - you'd pull in a second.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i find 'cute' (miranda) much hotter than 'hot' (nina), which i often don't find hot at all. i wonder if this means i am afraid of aggressive female sexuality.

― m. (mitchlnw), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought i had something to contribute to this thread, but now I've become distracted by some cartoon on television about a little girl and a monkey running away from a witch.

― battlin' green eyeshades (Homosexual II), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

ACtually, coming back to the topic of the thread, the weird thing is, in the long run, I actually have found the advice of people who *ARE* in successful relationships far more helpful than those so-called "dating advice" who never seem to spend their time doing anything but dating.

I mean, yeah, sure, sometimes you can feel a bit "But you don't know what it's LIKE...!" about it, but thing is, obviously they did something right at some point to get with their mate.

― Kissing Time At The Pleasure Unit (kate), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Although Euan Ferguson's column can on occasion be stimulating in a Michael Bywater apprentice kind of a way.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 25 October 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Euan Ferguson's column. I also like the column that the Observer's Scottish edition has instead of Christina Odone (I think the writer's name is something like Ruaridh Nicol), but as I don't live in Scotland any more I don't read it very often.

actually go to indie clubs. act all self-pitiful about how ugly you are - you'd pull in a second.

ken c in "being a twat" shocker.

― caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

being a twat helps you to pull too, sometimes. it's how you carry it off.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

that advice works, btw.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

sounds a bit rude

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 25 October 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

randomly announcing people as arbitary rude words, on the other hand, is a pretty good way to not pull.

xpost

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

arbitrary

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 October 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

hmmmm, revisiting this thread, it turned out ok i guess. one of the things i was wondering is whether anyone would admit re "mate selection" (or whatever you want to call it) that, when it comes to the physical part of it, the question "am i attracted to person X?" is often very tied up with "how would others perceive me differently if i were an item with person X?" i know i said this but i really think it's true that for many ppl there's something humiliating about being with someone unattractive (even being seen with one, for some).

also like caterine said there's often an instinctive dislike for a certain kind of ugly face, an immediate repulsion. it angers you, you think "fix that, i don't want to look at it." (this assumes you don't know the person.) many people react to it the same way they react to the smell of shit or decomposing trash. maybe we instinctively think "ugly" is "unhealthy". (sometimes that's true.)

am i attracted to "top ten percent people" exclusively? not at all. the other day i was sitting in a group of about two dozen people, all in their twenties, and i would say that of those who were the gender i fancy, physically i'd be open to all but one or two, and even they might sway me if the "magical thing" happened.

maybe what this thread or at least my question was about was coming to grips with being in that bottom 20, 25 percent (at least of people my age). i wish i could say "i am nobly indifferent to physical appearance" when it came to mate-finding but i'm not, and that self-hating question, "how can i expect what i can't give?" looms large.

(i am not marcello, and he's right to resent the accusation.)

for me the most helpful posters were: jimd, mitch, markelby, caterine vauban, tuomas.

for me the least helpful posters were: the ones who kept banging variations on "your life is like this b/c you're neurotic or think too much" or whatever.

the unanswered question is: when rejection happens over and over again, where is this positive reinforcement supposed to come from? and: how am i supposed to not start hating?

mitch i find it really surreal that you talk about feeling unattractive because i remember seeing a picture of you & thinking that you were particularly handsome. (hope that's not too creepy coming from someone anonymous.)

― logged-out animal, Thursday, 28 October 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

are human pheremones real?

― Loose Translation: Sexy Dancer (sexyDancer), Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

yes

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

(logged-out animal: i appreciate the kind words, but i reckon the truth is i either photograph well or select only good photos to post to ilx. i've had some Real life comments regarding my appearance that suggest that indeed look, well... unhandsome - if maybe not as bad as i sometimes imagine i do)

― m. (mitchlnw), Thursday, 28 October 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks, logged-out animal!

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

mitch i've met you and you are by no means as unattractive as you appear to be suggesting. get confident stupid!

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Thursday, 28 October 2004 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello, I'm with you. Miranda Sawyer could be vision of my ideal woman but her insufferable self-consciousness about cool would mean I couldn't look at her. I understand she talks in copy in real life too.

Marcello, I'm not with you on the dockers thing. (Nor, I guess, are you.) The only female music journalist I've ever known in real life is Kitty Empire. And she's a normal, attractive woman.

(It's Alan, by the way. I forgot my old login and email address, so I re-registered. Hello!)

― Acme (acme), Friday, 29 October 2004 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

If this is your predicament, logged-out, I'm sorry, but it's time to get a hobby (perhaps one that you might become accomplished enough at to be regarded as d/mate-worthy

substitute "regard yourself" for "be regarded"

mitch i find it really surreal that you talk about feeling unattractive because i remember seeing a picture of you & thinking that you were particularly handsome

and this teaches you nothing?

miranda seems to be the whistle only dogs can hear.

perhaps because the cats teach themselves to hear only the whistles they think the dogs hear

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 29 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

perhaps because the cats teach themselves to hear only the whistles they think the dogs hear

im still trying to work this one out in my head

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 29 October 2004 02:30 (twenty-one years ago)

me too, babe, me too.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 29 October 2004 03:33 (twenty-one years ago)

my brain just broke

― amateur!!st, Friday, 29 October 2004 03:59 (twenty-one years ago)

You're not a very clever cat, then.

― B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Friday, 29 October 2004 10:10 (twenty-one years ago)

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