canadian condolences for our american friends thread

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guys,

i feel really fucking horrible about how your election turned out yesterday. it really seems like a bad bad dream. we watched the election at the bar on a big screen last night (substituting for my dj night) and tried to cling to whatever hope we had. i know the majority of ilxors did their best to get out the vote and try to stop this from happening. as a non-us citizen & resident i have already heard a lot of "those fucking idiots... maybe they deserve what they get" nonsense. but most of us just feel terrible for you guys. here's hoping you have the strength to keep fighting.

and there's always room for you folks up here. lots of open spaces and plentiful poutine.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:37 (twenty years ago)

*sniff*
thank you, great white north, thank you. *dries eyes*

― Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:41 (twenty years ago)

those fucking idiots... maybe they deserve what they get

See, I could maybe understand IF THE US GOVT DIDN'T AFFECT THE ENTIRE WORLD AND ESPECIALLY CANADA FOR FUCK'S SAKE. The thought even briefly crossed my mind that it's too bad we couldn't vote.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:41 (twenty years ago)

god
I

― trigonalmayhem (trigonalmayhem), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:42 (twenty years ago)

oops
I can't do the less than three heart here, my bad
---
I heart poutine
expect me in may

― trigonalmayhem (trigonalmayhem), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:43 (twenty years ago)

Test:

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:43 (twenty years ago)

It doesn't work after all! When did that happen?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:44 (twenty years ago)

Back from the bar already Sundar? Sorry I missed you guys.

― Kim (Kim), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:48 (twenty years ago)

Ya, I feel sorry for us.

xpost - sorry i didn't come out tonight either

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:50 (twenty years ago)

i feel sorrier for americans right now, honestly. i've never felt luckier to be a canadian than right now.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:52 (twenty years ago)

"right now" is right. Think of the children!

― Kim (Kim), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:55 (twenty years ago)

I feel lucky too. But this means alot more work for me. More work fighting against this god awful missile defense plan. More work keeping the "yay America" Conservatives' power to a minimum in the inevitable election that will be descending upon us all within the next year or two.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:57 (twenty years ago)

I just don't get it. In any other country Bush's lack of ability coupled with his dismal record in nearly every category would have assured his defeat. The United States is really 2 countries awkwardly stitched together. There's the Northeast and West coast and then there's everything else. I identify and sympathize with people living on the edges, but what the hell is going on in the middle?! A large number of people interviewed yesterday cited "moral issues" as their number one concern. What about the WAR that your country is still waging on false pretences in Iraq? What about the record deficits that are only going to increase? What about all the jobs that have been lost in the last four years? How can anyone have time to worry about MORAL ISSUES?! Growing up America seemed similar enough to Canada that it almost felt familiar. Not anymore. Good Luck guys. I'd like to re-extend an open invitation to all political refugees. We've got space, clean water, a real seperation between church and state and hockey is so much better than baseball.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:58 (twenty years ago)

Err... about the hockey...

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:00 (twenty years ago)

Well at least we have Movie Night In Canada now.

― Kim (Kim), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:03 (twenty years ago)

sincere condolences, america. we all feel horrible about the election. my mom even cried last night. if you're in need, my house in vancouver is accepting political refugees.

― Shmool McShmool (shmuel), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:05 (twenty years ago)

Let's not pretend that Canada and many other countries aren't similarly divided. The differences ("moral values", fiscal issues, or whatever) between Alberta and Quebec are every bit as large as those between, say Texas and Massachusets. In our last election, the camps were emphatically divided. Of course, a) we have more camps, b) our PM isn't a cowboy who goes around bombing people.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:05 (twenty years ago)

It's not like "how can anyone have time to worry about moral issues", I don't think, it's that "Jesus Fuck, how can increasing poverty, secret detention and torture, blowing limbs from children's bodies, etc., etc., somehow fail to carry weight as moral issues with this many people?" I know people are probably sick of venting, so I'll try to keep from it too much and just go to bed already.

I completely agree, MindInRewind - I think this could be looked at as a sign of what Canadians have to work toward. I mean, only too many here think the government should jump at the next opportunity to become Master's favourite toad, and it's not like we're far off that in some areas. Maybe we're not the favourite anymore, but you know.

― Pangolino Without Memory and Not Home, Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:29 (twenty years ago)

will you adopt me?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:31 (twenty years ago)

yes.

― anthony, Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:32 (twenty years ago)

Keep the poutine warm... I'll be up shortly.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:51 (twenty years ago)

did i ever write you back paul?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 4 November 2004 05:00 (twenty years ago)

Let's not pretend that Canada and many other countries aren't similarly divided.

exactly. jacques chirac doesn't refrain from bombing the shit outta 3d world nations b/c he's a nice guy ... he refrains from doing so b/c he CAN'T. and one of our "allies" -- vladimir putin -- regularly bombs the shit outta people that he thinks threaten russia (w/n russia nowadays), but refrains from doing so to, say, the poles or the chinese or the lithuanians (though, of course, russian leaders not that long ago did not feel such restraint).

but bush still sucks. as do the people who voted for him.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Thursday, 4 November 2004 05:32 (twenty years ago)

Your country, do whatcha like, I don't really give a fuck. Though if you seriously want a Canadian passport and are prepared to pay a stupid amount I've got a couple of old expired ones lying around. Or better yet give me your US one for trade because I'm fucking tired of conversations about snowblower attachments to farm tractors. I know I said this already on another thread but I need money REALLY fuckin' bad. (Burned again, y'know? And I can't shoot the fucker because we don't have 'guns' up here)

― dave q, Thursday, 4 November 2004 06:29 (twenty years ago)

Canada IS quite divided in many ways. We need only look to Quebec and the lingering seperatist sentiment that will likely remain for as long as the country exists as an example of that. Also, the last federal election showed that there is a strain of American style neo-conservatism taking hold out West that is decidedly at odds with most of the rest of the country. It seems to me however, in spite of whatever problems exist, that Canadians are better able, or at least more willing to try, to bridge the differences. I loathe the idea of Quebec seperatism, but I've tried to understand the historical reasons behind it and in some weird way, I can almost sympathize with people who feel that they would be better off without the rest of us. It seems to me that the gap between Americans living in the middle of the country and those on the edges is rapidly becoming insurmountable. People in large urban centres dismiss mid-westerners as bible thumping nutjobs and they in turn characterize the city dwellers as godless, LIBERALS who want to destroy the family and undermine the moral fibre of the country. Neither group has even the remotest understanding of the other and they don't seem to want to change that in any way. It just doesn't make me feel very positive about the future of American politics.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 4 November 2004 06:32 (twenty years ago)

Hi. I hate to keep saying it, but don't forget us Great Lakes states. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Michigan all went blue.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 4 November 2004 06:36 (twenty years ago)

http://www.danallan.com/creations/pictures/ohcanada.gif

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 4 November 2004 06:39 (twenty years ago)

j-rock i believe quebec separatism is really spinning down. it is going away, for better or worse.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:04 (twenty years ago)

I'd like to believe that, but I'm sure many people have said that over the last 40 years.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:05 (twenty years ago)

Amen, jaymc. Although, we're really a 'coast' as well.

― k3rry (dymaxia), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:07 (twenty years ago)

I think separatism will persist as long as there are second-year university students. Definitely as long as there is still a Liberal Party of Canada.

I think we're a lot better off than the US, to be honest. What we don't have, and what really scares me the most about the US is the urban/rural split. CNN has county-by-county breakdown, and even in states like California, Oregon, Illinois, Ohio, that have significant Democratic support, those votes are all in the big cities.
It's not the states you want; Oregon's as bad as Nebraska, outside of Portland and Eugene; it's just the cities, and how fucked does that make the country?

Canada can still elect New Democrats from Skeena-Bulkley Valley and Timmins-James Bay, and they're so far left, relatively, as to be barely within the very far left of the Democrats. The more I think about Kerry as Mulroney, the more I think it's a fair parallel. Martin is almost Mulroney too, though, perhaps. God, I'm so sick of Martin already; he's the greatest discrepancy between hype and reality I've ever witnessed.

― derrick (derrick), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:20 (twenty years ago)

*sniff*

(Do I smell poutine?)

― Nemo (JND), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:21 (twenty years ago)

What we don't have, and what really scares me the most about the US is the urban/rural split.
The separatist movement has its own urban/rural split, but otherwise you're right.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:26 (twenty years ago)

We had a conversation about Martin on a thread a while back. We basically agreed the he would be better suited for the PC party.

(We being myself and Mr.Noodles)

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:26 (twenty years ago)

God, I'm so sick of Martin already; he's the greatest discrepancy between hype and reality I've ever witnessed.
Martin was hyped? Maybe by himself ...

Layton has a FAR greater gap between hype and reality, but perhaps it's too early in his federal career to judge for certain ...

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:30 (twenty years ago)

Martin was hyped like mad by the Liberal pary. Well most of them. Layton, however... uh...

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago)

There was a long period of time (the 18 months or so before Cretien's retirement when he kept going out of his way to marginalize Martin) that Martin had to self-sustain his own hype.
I guess it's hard to hype somebody and get the public buzzing when the message is essentially "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:39 (twenty years ago)

though i'm very guilty of it myself, Canadian self-righteousness about American politics is smug and undeserved. I'm not saying there's any of that smugness on this thread, just that when canadians talk about US politics they can get pretty preachy. We have our own problems, our own historical wrongs, our own deep divisions that no-one can figure out how to begin to address.

Anyway, as far as this issue goes I love the States, spent half my life there and I'm sad to see Bush in again. Other than that, all I can say is that I hope we can offer refuge again if there's a draft...

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago)

I try not to be smug about the politics (which is perhaps clear upthread) but I do think that we can be rightfully smug about some of the issues. Their president didn't give a crap what their people thought before heading to Iraq. Our PM took the time to gauge public opinion on the war (although he did take his sweet time and endlessly hemmed and hawed about it) before making the crucial decision over whether or not to send troops. It took time, but in the end the correct decision (based on the will of the country) was made. I think we can be rightfully proud and smug about this process.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 17:59 (twenty years ago)

Actually no, S1, you never did write me back!

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago)

Layton has a FAR greater gap between hype and reality

Layton & Chow are surpassed only by Rae in this category.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:08 (twenty years ago)

xpost i don't know about that - smugness is pretty unpleasant even when you're right about something

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

Maybe Rae > Layton, but Layton + Chow >> Rae

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:09 (twenty years ago)

I think I can be guilty of smugness sometimes when it comes to looking at politics south of the boarder (I actually kind of felt the whole concept of this thread was a little smug when I saw it). But I don't feel bad about it - I don't think I go overboard or anything, like that guy in Calgary from the "Stupid Canadian" thread. Sure it's not perfect but I do honestly believe we have a better system.

xpost

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:14 (twenty years ago)

this thread was originally intended at a pre-emptive strike against smugness (though i'm not taking back what i said about feeling lucky to be canadian)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago)

Thermo basically nailed it -- most of us probably do genuinely believe that our system is better, and there's no crime in taking pride in that. We can offer condolences while still being critical (but not mean-spirited). Every other country does it.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:47 (twenty years ago)

What do you guys have against Layton? It's the first time the NDP ran a credible platform in at least a decade, possibly more. Worse than Bob Rae = WTF?

I really like Black Sabbath.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:50 (twenty years ago)

it's shit like "it's too bad we couldn't vote." that gets me - um, why should we be able to vote somewhere we don't live or pay taxes? it's asinine

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:52 (twenty years ago)

i think that comment was meant at least a little facetiously. come on.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago)

s1ocki OTM.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago)

One day I will see/smell/taste some poutine and have some idea of what you are all talking about.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:55 (twenty years ago)

It's the first time the NDP ran a credible platform in at least a decade,

I wouldn't use the word credible. Imaginary, fantasy or Dubya-reality might be better choices to describe (once again) the NDP platform.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:57 (twenty years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/kelstarry/new_map.jpg

― kelsey (kelstarry), Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago)

Bush swept Jesusland.

― Bnad, Thursday, 4 November 2004 18:59 (twenty years ago)

I'm proud to say that every place I've ever lived, and every place any of my ancestors lived since they crossed the Atlantic, is part of the United States of Canada in the map above.

― Bnad, Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:01 (twenty years ago)

Bush swept.
Jesus wept.

(Please kill me now for writing that.)

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:03 (twenty years ago)

That's like a poem I would have written in 5th grade.

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:03 (twenty years ago)

it's shit like "it's too bad we couldn't vote." that gets me - um, why should we be able to vote somewhere we don't live or pay taxes? it's asinine

Theoretically this is what the United Nations should be about...the ability for countries to interact with each other on issues that aren't strictly internal issues, but ones which spill out into the entire world. The biggest problem here, especially over the last four years, is that the US government basically doesn't give a fuck about what anyone else thinks about ANYTHING. So I understand the sentiment.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:05 (twenty years ago)

s1ocki OTM.

Especially because the point behind the comment was simply that we should care about American political events and not be smug and isolationist about it.

I'll argue with Noodles later when I'm not as tired and sick. For now, I'll just say I still don't see how Layton's platform could seem less credible than McDonough's.

3xpost Sean OTM also.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:08 (twenty years ago)

re: Martin's hype. Don't you remember the two years of constant gloating, 'if martin was in power, this would be solved by now' everytime Chretien made a misstep? The 60%+ approval ratings? the 'biggest majority in history', 'Liberal tide to beat all tides', 'primed for an unprecedented breakthrough'? All the while, Martin carefully cultivated no opinion at all on everything that came across his radar screen: same sex marriage, marijuana, Iraq, federalism, Quebec, whatever. It was always "Well, I'm not too sure" or "There's a lot to think about, you know", before rushing off. Somehow, this was interpreted as a brand new inclusive thoughtful brilliant way of making policy, rather than total shirking of every issue. Remember the Bono speech at the convention? Even my dad, who's voted NDP forever, said to me one day, maybe a month before that convention, "you know, I think things might really change when Martin gets in". obv. they haven't, and they won't: Martin's a tired old man who's finally won the prize, but he's not quite sure what to do with it, and anyway, who knew it would be so darn hard! He looked so sad during the general election, as if he was realising how much harder the job would be when he couldn't simply take over riding associations to get his way.

It's true that Layton had a nasty fall in the same way, but I'm not sure if that can all be laid on him, and I do think he needs time to grow into his role; Ed Broadbent got 4 elections to build his name, while Layton's only been an MP for 5 months. That said, he promised way too much for the NDP; far more than he could ever deliver. The next election will be the breaker for him, though; the NDP went from distant third to excruciatingly close second in a good 10 ridings here in BC. If they can be pushed just over the top next time, Layton will have earned his stripes.

― derrick (derrick), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:28 (twenty years ago)

The big problem for the NDP is being totally shut out of Quebec. I think Layton would make a better provincial leader than federal.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:38 (twenty years ago)

They've also been trying their best to wiggle around WTO and NAFTA boards but luckily they can't dance around big businesses as well as they can foreign government.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:40 (twenty years ago)

re: Martin's hype. Don't you remember the two years of constant gloating,
That's what I meant by the Martin "self-hype", that is, he tried to lay low after being fired from the Cabinet and let his supporters build a case for him. I don't think the *public* hype was very strong, because (massive, possibly unsubstantiated generalization alert) I don't think the average Liberal voter really cared who was in charge leading up to the last election, I just think they wanted to see the Libs get re-elected.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:45 (twenty years ago)

OTOH, the public hype for Layton was very strong, as both the NDP voters and the members of the party were convinced that Layton was about to lead them into a whole new politcal world.

But again, it's too soon to pass judgement on whether he'll be successful or not. So far, I have my doubts.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 4 November 2004 19:47 (twenty years ago)

it's shit like "it's too bad we couldn't vote." that gets me - um, why should we be able to vote somewhere we don't live or pay taxes? it's asinine

Well actually, it's hardly that simple. I think that people say things like this because they see that in many ways Canada *is* almost a part of the States. I think we got a decent reminder of how much so last year during the blackout. There's a LOT of interdependence and influence between us, influence that most would admit runs generally more in one direction than the other, so in that sense - it makes perfect sense. Formalities aside, usually it seems like the American government views the Canadian one as more of a glorified lobby group than a truly separate political entity.

― Kim (Kim), Friday, 5 November 2004 01:15 (twenty years ago)

And... I think we pretty much do constantly betray the fact that even we see ourselves, our DIFFERENCE as "the privileged" or "the fortunate" rather than "the independent" or "the separate". Being this lucky is great though, so we feel like we shouldn't complain, but if we have arguable less say, it's still somewhat of a gilded cage.

― Kim (Kim), Friday, 5 November 2004 01:24 (twenty years ago)

"house slaves of the American Empire...of course, we are better off than the field slaves of South America"

― dave q, Friday, 5 November 2004 06:32 (twenty years ago)

I wonder how many Americans will be able to tolerate the sometimes unbearable smugness of Canadians.

― Guymauve (Guymauve), Friday, 5 November 2004 07:07 (twenty years ago)

Oh, but we're very polite about our smugness. That's part of being Canadian.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 5 November 2004 07:10 (twenty years ago)

You should try tolerating the ignorance of American tourists.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 5 November 2004 14:37 (twenty years ago)

Here in Helsinki, I just got congratulated, in Finnish, on the election of Bush. I'm Canadian. And sometimes a smug one.

― Guymauve (Guymauve), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:01 (twenty years ago)

Don't ever get tired of explaining this little thing about not being American?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:05 (twenty years ago)

Bush's top choices for regime change:

- Iran
- Syria
- Canada

(I'm going from memory here; I think I got the list right)

― Bnad, Friday, 5 November 2004 15:36 (twenty years ago)

We got a minority government for a few more monthes so he'll just have to wait.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 5 November 2004 15:38 (twenty years ago)

j-rock i believe quebec separatism is really spinning down. it is going away, for better or worse.

It's weird our impressions are so different about that; I thought it was gaining a lot in popularity with the papers saying so, and the PQ talked about how for the next elections a vote for them would be a vote for separation: electing them would mean an instant separation. (it won't happen like that but I'm just saying)

― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Friday, 5 November 2004 18:52 (twenty years ago)

Did your parents ever threaten to turn the car around and head back home when you were younger?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 5 November 2004 19:09 (twenty years ago)

Ha ha ha!

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 5 November 2004 19:09 (twenty years ago)

I'm teaching a course on Canadian cultural studies here in Helsinki. I started it with this joke: How many Canadians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Five. One to screw it in and four to say "He's Canadian you know". Got some laughs, but just a few.

They were amused by Bob and Doug Mackenzie and the "I Am Canadian" ad, too. I'm not sure how they'll take Kids in the Hall, but they liked Rick Mercer and his anti-American clips from This Hour. They liked the smugness. It's been a real treat teaching this course to Finns as they have some shared antipathy towards big warring nation-states and cultural/economic juggernauts.

I always fear being mistaken for an American here in Europe. I'm sure that my Russian neighbours in (former East) Berlin were convinced of it. Made life a bit difficult sometimes, especially when the pipes burst.

I still say "Eh" alot to reassure myself. Small comfort.

― Guymauve (Guymauve), Friday, 5 November 2004 20:02 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3987697.stm

― Guymauve (Guymauve), Saturday, 6 November 2004 05:53 (twenty years ago)

Look, I called dibs first, OK?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 6 November 2004 06:13 (twenty years ago)

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