Going over to someone's apartment for the first time and immediately perusing their book/record collections

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Do you do this?

I do.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:12 (twenty years ago)

I recently did this to the famous ILX poster known as "kyle".

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:13 (twenty years ago)

Although the books and records he had in his apartment were the same books and records that he had in his last one, just relocated and rearranged.

It was still pretty interesting, though!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:14 (twenty years ago)

You mean there are people who don't?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:15 (twenty years ago)

I usually say "hi" first.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:15 (twenty years ago)

I thought the trick was to break in first.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:16 (twenty years ago)

I usually make a large pile of the ones I'd like to borrow.

― Wooden (Wooden), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:16 (twenty years ago)

I just start casually alphabetizing them.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:17 (twenty years ago)

I always assumed people did this, so kept loanable stuff on its own shelf.

xpost!

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:17 (twenty years ago)

Actually I've felt uncomfortable about this lately, I don't want them to think I'm being silently judgemental. It can be a good conversation starter though.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:18 (twenty years ago)

Tonight I went to see a Belgian and perused his iTunes library, to find to my delight that he had Plastic Bertrand!

― Cathy (Cathy), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:19 (twenty years ago)

if someone is a big music dork then they'd be flattered if you perused their music collection (i would be)

however if they're not (a big music dork) then they will think you are weird and possibly rude

― amateur!!st, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:20 (twenty years ago)

Does anyone else go through this process?:

1. Buy a new CD (or several).
2. Place purchase(s) on shelf at home.
3. Look away, and then assume the mindset of a casually browsing houseguest.
4. Look back at shelf.
5. Make assumption about your own personality/taste based on what you now see.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:21 (twenty years ago)

guys?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:21 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I always do this (xpost, not Adam's thing, which I have never done). If they aren't a big music dork they don't have music collections for us to peruse.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:22 (twenty years ago)

i like to go through girl's underwear drawers

― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:22 (twenty years ago)

i went to the music moles place and he had his records on an old fashioned shop display stand - covers facing out - in the middle of the lounge room so i did then!

― bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:23 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, every music dork worth his or her salt autmoatically knows that the collections of non-music dorks aren't worth browsing anyway!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:23 (twenty years ago)

The one thing I do almost always do when putting a new CD on the shelves is noticing who they are between - like earlier I put a Beastie Boys CD away and it was between Chuck Berry and Basement Jaxx, which seemed very apt.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago)

i have shelves on wheels housing different collections and i change them depending on who's coming over

― bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:25 (twenty years ago)

guys?

I've never done this with music (because I know I'm a music dork and I have what I have), but I do it with books, & comics.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:25 (twenty years ago)

whenever i order my cd's into alphabetical order all the really shit ones stand out.

i'd rather somebody looked through my ipod.

― Hari Ashurst (Toaster), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:27 (twenty years ago)

I would rather people look at my books than my cds for some reason. I guess I just don't think of my cd collection as being very impressive, while my book library seems more interesting and diverse to me.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:27 (twenty years ago)

Oh god, no! My ipod is a private matter!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:27 (twenty years ago)

i do this sometimes, but then i feel kind of like a jerk.

― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:27 (twenty years ago)

I would hate for someone to look in my fridge. I'd rather let them look up my nose or something!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:28 (twenty years ago)

My books are in the library, mostly - just the reference and art books in the living room, because I find I look at them frequently, which I don't do with fiction. Comics too. This gives less opportunity for visitors to look at them.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:29 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, my fridge is really embarassing and smells kind of bad.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:29 (twenty years ago)

I felt weird when Leee came over to my apartment and I basically encouraged him to browse my iTunes library.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:30 (twenty years ago)

Is that why you started the "what do yr comics say about yr personality?" thread, adam? Were you doing that with your comics?

(I don't think I've ever done that, as such. Definitely not with music. I remember saying something along those lines to my ex when we were moving and our books were all mixed in together and seemed mismatched, but that's only sort of similar, I think.)

xpost; I encourage people to look in my fridge!

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:30 (twenty years ago)

Not in a creepy way or anything.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:31 (twenty years ago)

No Tep, I don't really have a comics "collection" to speak of.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:31 (twenty years ago)

I encourage strange children to come and peruse the collection of candies that I keep in my basement.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:32 (twenty years ago)

most people are too scared to look through my racks

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:33 (twenty years ago)

luverly

― bob the plumber, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:33 (twenty years ago)

I totally do the adam thing! Like starting from multiple points, and giving up at various stages to acquire various incomplete views. It takes like an hour to get right, moving house.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:34 (twenty years ago)

truth is...i never get invited to other peoples places :(

― bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:34 (twenty years ago)

you can come over to mine gaz

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:34 (twenty years ago)

thnx jim: have you got a good collection?

― bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:35 (twenty years ago)

My CDs are the first things people see when they walk into my apartment. Almost everyone looks a little staggered when they walk in and most at least unconsciously peruse them.

I do this all the time btw.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:36 (twenty years ago)

quality is in the eye of the beholder gaz. however i can objectively say that it is quite large

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:36 (twenty years ago)

My CDs are all still in wallets from my move from the UK. It looks like I have a really small collection oh no!

I have almost 100gb of MP3s though!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:38 (twenty years ago)

I like to see people's reactions to mine - there are two poles, I find. Ned, for instance, had an immediate 'my kind of place' reaction, whereas some people are like 'Why have you got so many records? Are you a DJ?' If they are mystified by someone having lots of music, I assume we are basically not compatible people.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:39 (twenty years ago)

I may be able to disturb the second class of people I mentioned even more in future - if I get round to my current plan, I'll be able to say "This is the main library, and if you turn left out of here, the sixth door on your left is the secondary library..." Except I'd be too embarrassed to say anything like that, of course.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:42 (twenty years ago)

"And that over there is the auxiliary library. Please don't touch anything in there."

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:43 (twenty years ago)

I do it and often make brash judgements on the person as a result.

― choo choo the herky jerky dancer (papa november), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:43 (twenty years ago)

I do it, sometimes, but shouldn't.

― RJG (RJG), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:44 (twenty years ago)

I am certain my opinion of kyle would be totally different if I dind't know that he secretly likes Genesis and metal!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:47 (twenty years ago)

theres nothing like being invited to someones place, having a look at their music collection, and experiencing that sinking feeling

― bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:48 (twenty years ago)

But RJG, when I perused your book/record collection was when I decided I liked you.

It's good to peruse, I think.

― Cathy (Cathy), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:49 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 57 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I do it.

I relish the idea of anyone doing it to me.

Because my record collection is fantastically impressing!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:55 (twenty years ago)

fantastically impressive as well!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:55 (twenty years ago)

ha!

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:56 (twenty years ago)

earlier I put a Beastie Boys CD away and it was between Chuck Berry and Basement Jaxx

Martin in owning-no-Beach-Boys-or-Beatles SHOCKA!

― JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:11 (twenty years ago)

dan selzer in non-modesty shockah!

i don't let my friend joe borrow books or CDs anymore. he loses them or damages them or both. fucker. (seriously he's lost three books and two CDs in the past year. he is CUT OFF.)

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm more about the books than the record collection these days. Cause I actually buy a lot more books than records these days, and I'd much rather be judged by my own bookshelf.

But yeah, I don't see a problem with this. It's all about discovering if you have common tastes or common interests. Which isn't necessarily an indication of whether your relationship will be a success or not, but it's sure a good starting ground.

one thing I've discovered is that if I walk into a person's home and they don't have any books on display, I should walk right back out again, very quickly.

― Masonic Laundry Boom (kate), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:17 (twenty years ago)

I put a Beastie Boys CD away and it was between Chuck Berry and Basement Jaxx, which seemed very apt.

Martin in owning-no-Beach-Boys-or-Beatles SHOCKA!

My first thought on reading it was "Martin doesn't have any Beck" - this is a thing I always do when browsing alphabetically ordered collections, look for what *isn't* there as well as what is.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:25 (twenty years ago)

I only noticed it because I've always half-suspected that the Beasties intentionally chose a name which would slot them in between those two. I mean, it's definitely the bit of the alphabet where the big boys hang out, and I'd want to be in there too, if I was naming a band.

― JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:37 (twenty years ago)

B? No, sorry, all my big boys hang out around the S section. SP and ST are the heaviest shelf.

― The Grain of Sand in Lambeth That Satan Cannot Find (kate), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago)

My tastes aren't as eclectic as ILM's average, I don't think, but whenever a girls come over and looks over my collection they always say, 'I don't know ANY of these!'

― 57 7th (calstars), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:05 (twenty years ago)

Martin in owning-no-Beach-Boys-or-Beatles SHOCKA!

I own lots of Beach Boys on vinyl and cassette, in fact, but indeed no Beatles at all. Nor Beck, come to that.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:12 (twenty years ago)

i am going to yanc3y's apartment for the first time with the express purpose of browsing his CDs.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:44 (twenty years ago)

In my case it would be difficult as I have separate rooms to house both library and sound archive and you can't get into them without keying in an access code. This is London and you can't take chances. Also I like to keep the front room uncluttered.

But nobody ever comes round to my apartment so I suppose it's all academic :-(

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 11 November 2004 08:38 (twenty years ago)

This is absolutely the first thing I do when i go to ANYONE'S house.
And none of my stuff is in hard copy format anymore.
I miniaturized it and injected it into my BRAIN.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Thursday, 11 November 2004 08:39 (twenty years ago)

the one person who does visit with any regularity (read 'ever') is one of those people with 12 cds so the big piles of cds are lost on him.

bookcase isn't really indicative either as it mostly contains things i haven't read (yet) whereas everything i've read in the last 2 years is piled up in the bedroom.

part of me hates the 'you are what you buy' aspect to all this and i'm sure a lot of the people who'd rather spend money on travelling or drinking or crazy parties have more 'fun'. but i hate 'fun'. but i do it myself, looking through people's bookshelves. it's nice to have shared interests with people you like but it's not necessary.

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 11 November 2004 09:23 (twenty years ago)

But don't you think that "you are what you buy" with regard to the things that actually influence your BRAIN and your THINKING on such a deep level as the things you mentally consumed (books, music, art) are actually much more indicative of your actual personality?

I'd rather be judged by my bookshelves and my record collection than by my clothes or the car I would hypothetically drive or some such nonsense like that.

― The Grain of Sand in Lambeth That Satan Cannot Find (kate), Thursday, 11 November 2004 11:10 (twenty years ago)

I own lots of Beach Boys on vinyl and cassette

Ah, I suspected this might be the case. :)

but indeed no Beatles at all.

Me neither, as it happens.

― JimD (JimD), Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:43 (twenty years ago)

Kate if you're on the pull then you can't bring your book or record collection with you, so people are going to judge you by your clothes/car/looks whether you like it or not.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:56 (twenty years ago)

I feel really rude when I do this.

Still do it all the time, tho. Especially in lieu of conversation, because I have NO SOCIAL SKILLS WHATSOEVER. & it's just nosiness, I find it v. hard to draw any conclusions about anyone from their music taste (beyond eg 'he is kind of emo').

Scrolling through other people's itunes lists is somehow different: the whole downloading-or-ripping-only-certain-songs thing means it's much more specialised but oddly less satisfying.

― cis (cis), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:08 (twenty years ago)

I've now got the concept of a hypothetical covers band in my head, called The Beatlie Boys, who do sets of songs by all three B bands. And maybe even mash-ups. Wow!

― JimD (JimD), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:21 (twenty years ago)

It feels rude to do this with friends, I just do it if I'm bored or they're distracted. When I go to professors' offices I sometimes feel weird making eye contact though, and I feel justified staring at their books because three out of four walls are covered with books. (My Greek professor has the coolest bookshelf, closely followed by my first semester Russian prof and my English prof.)

― Maria (Maria), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:54 (twenty years ago)

I hate that I do this, but whenever I stay with someone for around a week, I always find one book and spend all of my spare time reading that book. For every vacation I've been on where someone was kind enough to put me up for a few days, I can always remember what book it was that I was reading.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 12 November 2004 05:08 (twenty years ago)

I wouldn't find it rude if you did this to me. What type of person says or even thinks "DO YOU MIND????" when someone peruses such things that are left out in the open? Not someone whose home I'd like to be at.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 12 November 2004 05:25 (twenty years ago)

I don't like this cos I always forget to turn my self help books round so you can't see the spines and then there's the medieval record, I hate talking about that because what do I know about medieval? There is a song on it that sounds exactly like 'Blackadder' though which shows that the makers of that show were very ... interested in medieval. I also don't like it if people see that I have writing reference books and say 'Oh have you read this'. Because if I admit to having read it the immediate question would be, okay, what happened to your writing. That is obviously unspoken. I think that if you're gonna look at someone's record or book collection you should ... well maybe people should have a special room where they keep their books and records for public consumption, a fake room.

― xx, Friday, 12 November 2004 05:50 (twenty years ago)

What about people who don't have any self help books? What do they have, a fake life? Ha ha ha.

― xx, Friday, 12 November 2004 05:51 (twenty years ago)

I'm sure I've spun this yarn somewhere on ILX before, but way back in the Dark Ages when I was still single, a girl I'd been dating came over and started fliping through my albums (this is back in the days of vinyl-as-primary-medium). She wasn't a music fan by a long stretch (I don't even think she owned a radio), but was curious about what it was that I loved so much. I heard her gasp. I turned around to see her holding my copy of To Mega Therion by Celtic Frost by the edge as if it had been dipped in some radioactive substance. She was egregiously offended by the cover art (for those unfamiliar, this particular `Frost cover boasts a painting by H.R. Giger of Satan using a crucifix as a slingshot.) She was honestly shocked to speechlessness (I knew she was religious, but not to this degree). We ended up breaking up (mercifully) over it. I suggested that if the very thing that I found so amusing she conversely found so horrific, then it was probably a good idea that we part ways.

She also used to like to unsolicitedly lean over in restaurants and cut my food. Suffice to say, I was glad to be rid of her.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 12 November 2004 06:53 (twenty years ago)

I'm going to start buying Toby Keith and Gatlin Bros CDs just to freak out the guests.

Guess before I do all that, I need to find some potential guests first.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:01 (twenty years ago)

Along with a bunch of pamphlets on "dealing with syphillis" from the free clinic.

― jay blanchard (jay blanchard), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:37 (twenty years ago)

She also used to like to unsolicitedly lean over in restaurants and cut my food. Suffice to say, I was glad to be rid of her.

This is worse than taking offense at Celtic Frost, I think.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:40 (twenty years ago)

I mean, music is just music, and everyone's entitled to their opinions, but FOOD IS SACRED.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:41 (twenty years ago)

one thing I've discovered is that if I walk into a person's home and they don't have any books on display, I should walk right back out again, very quickly.

OTM

― Formerly Lee G (Formerly Lee G), Friday, 12 November 2004 23:03 (twenty years ago)

Hm, I can't go along with this at all. Besides the fact that all my fiction is hidden in my library, there isn't actually anything wrong with people who don't read books much, or at all.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 12 November 2004 23:49 (twenty years ago)

Y'all ain't nuthin' but a bunch of bookists anyways.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Saturday, 13 November 2004 00:02 (twenty years ago)

there isn't actually anything wrong with people who don't read books much, or at all.

No, there certainly isn't, but I agree with what I took to be the good Ms. Boom's basic point--you might be nice and decent person, but if you're not a reader at some level, we're probably not going to have much to talk about, and not just because that rules out talking about books.

― Formerly Lee G (Formerly Lee G), Saturday, 13 November 2004 00:20 (twenty years ago)

there isn't actually anything wrong with people who don't read books much, or at all.

Yes there is. And what's wrong with them is that they have such a fundamentally different view on life and what is important in it that anything more than a casual pub conversation friendship with them is practically impossible for me.

OK, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is something *wrong* with them. It just means, from repeating past experience, that I'm not likely to have much in common with them.

― The Grain of Sand in Lambeth That Satan Cannot Find (kate), Saturday, 13 November 2004 11:44 (twenty years ago)

I always go through other peoples' stuff!

My CD's are stored in haphazard fashion, piled up on the floor, some in a shelf unit, some piled up in my wardrobe, some in storage boxes. I have entirely too many.

My book shelf is half comics.

― jel -- (jel), Saturday, 13 November 2004 14:25 (twenty years ago)

hey, i didn't do that this time -- must not be instinct -- what a relief!

― youn, Saturday, 13 November 2004 14:27 (twenty years ago)

I turned around to see her holding my copy of To Mega Therion by Celtic Frost by the edge as if it had been dipped in some radioactive substance. She was egregiously offended by the cover art (for those unfamiliar, this particular `Frost cover boasts a painting by H.R. Giger of Satan using a crucifix as a slingshot.)

do you also have christian death's sex and drugs and jesus christ? and how much more repulsed would she have been from THAT album cover?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:04 (twenty years ago)

"She also used to like to unsolicitedly lean over in restaurants and cut my food. Suffice to say, I was glad to be rid of her."

WTF?!!? You dated someone who actually did this, Alex?!?!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:13 (twenty years ago)

I have always done this and will always.

― Michael White (Hereward), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:16 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha I can believe it, but somehow I can't see Alex dating you.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:18 (twenty years ago)

i always always check ppl's stuff when i go over, to the extent that if/when i go to the bathroom and stumble across the roomn with extra books i make a stop to checkout

books/CDs are (to me)the most telling thing abt someone and can affect our relationship. If i hate stuff, it would not really have a serious impact if I liked the person/s but when you find stuff you like - like recently a whole Tintin collection next to cool lit. crit. stuff next to fun biographys and more and i've already been borrowing bollywood dvds and mohammed rafi cds and i just feel, gawd ilove you ppl

― H (Heruy), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:19 (twenty years ago)

"She also used to like to unsolicitedly lean over in restaurants and cut my food. Suffice to say, I was glad to be rid of her."

WTF?!!? You dated someone who actually did this, Alex?!?!

Strange but true, yes I did. I can remember the evening it happened. We were at some restaurant on the Upper East Side, and she was actually talking to someone else at the table at the time and -- apparently concerned that I wasn't eating fast enough or that I was having some difficulty navigating through my pepper steak (or whatever it was), she leaned over and started sawing away at it. At first I thought, "ah, she wants a bit of my food." This was not the case. She leaned back up and continued talking to whomever. I was instantly infantilized by this woman. Being that I don't harbour any Oedipal fetish, I was instantly repulsed and bewildered by this act. Still, she was rather "aggressive" in other departments, so I stuck with it for a little while. By the time of the Celtic Frost incident (cheers to you, Tom Gabriel Warrior - wherever you may be today), the writing was really already on the wall. It took the `Frost and Herr Giger to seal the deal, bless'em.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:34 (twenty years ago)

like recently a whole Tintin collection next to cool lit. crit. stuff next to fun biographys and more

Visit any time, H. ;-)

Still, she was rather "aggressive" in other departments, so I stuck with it for a little while

So that explains the bleary-eyed look. And I thought it was just the baby.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:36 (twenty years ago)

This was years ago, Nedward.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:36 (twenty years ago)

*files joke in the 'did not work' folder*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:37 (twenty years ago)

five months pass...

hi ned.

― constance, Friday, 13 May 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

i didn't know about tintin 2 or 3 years ago when i was asked. so what?

― constance, Friday, 13 May 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

as a library clerk, i would have more opportunities to read. i bought few books with the money i had. ::library card appeared one day:::

― constance, Friday, 13 May 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

I require it of my guests.

Because if they don't look at my books, then they might not realize that I am rilly rilly smart and all cultured 'n' shit.

― The Mad Puffin, Friday, 13 May 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

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