A bit late perhaps -- but a salute to Veteran's Day

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I feel a bit annoyed with having let the full impact of the day slip past me, almost. Talking Points came up with a salient reminder and some good links. Too many of my fellow citizens are stuck elsewhere tonight because of Certain Leaders of Ours, and having to work on a holiday is a small complaint in comparison.

A salute to you if you served, like my dad and like folks here such as Mssrs. Blount and Weiner. And empathy for ya if you grew up a military brat like me -- not in a negative sense, more in a 'yeah, it's a weird life, isn't it -- but you get used to it' sense.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:49 (twenty years ago)

And Briania too!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:50 (twenty years ago)

It's hard not to be ambivalent about soldiers, knowing that the primary purpose of soldiers is to kill or to aid and abet killing. But, sometimes you really need ordinary men and women who are willing to do this in a good cause (the best cause being the defense of hearth and home). Sometimes nothing else will do. It makes me really angry when this willingness to do a dangerous and dirty mission is abused by those in power.

I thank the soldiers, though, regardless of the justice of the wars they've been asked to fight - because they were willing to put their lives on the line for something larger than saving their own ass. It's everyone's job to keep the leaders honest, not just the grunts.

Aimless (Aimless), Friday, 12 November 2004 01:02 (twenty years ago)

Well said. The assumptions of many that to go into military work means solely that you're interested in blood and death is incredibly obnoxious to me, and the assumptions that there isn't an initial *and* continuing constant review of questions of morality among those in the service even more so. Like humanity in general, there are those who are committed, specific but inflexible, and there are others who review and reconsider -- all within a framework that by its nature must demand a literal and specific uniformity. It is not an easy balance to maintain.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 01:34 (twenty years ago)

I was at work today and I DID MY TIME
still eligible for callup until 2007 according to my DD-214 too!

TOMBOT, Friday, 12 November 2004 01:50 (twenty years ago)

Good lord, I forgot you as well! I R doof.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 01:51 (twenty years ago)

It's really a mistake to say that the primary duty of soliders is to kill and aid/abet killing. This is not only inaccurate but it's bad military science. Just because some of us get to fly apaches, drive tanks, or carry rifles, does not mean that we are all there to kill. There's not a thing in the oath of enlistment about killing.

When soldiers are ordered to war, they are never ordered to commit genocide, or to "go kill every single person on that mountain top." The job of the military is "hold this line" or "take that hill" or "secure the village." Troops get rifles and tanks because these are frequently the tools they need most desperately to do their job.

If a person, not in uniform, was beset by attackers while trying to travel from one place to another and repelled the assault using a weapon, we would not say their job was simply to kill. They were defending themselves. If they had been killed, it would be seen as a travesty of justice, because they were not in uniform.

Which brings me to my point. What IS in the oath of enlistment is a solemn promise to die, if it becomes necessary. And that is what the uniform means. Rifle or no rifle, the uniform means you are a target. We enter into the contract to become targets, to die so that others may travel unmolested. The primary duty of all military personnel is to be killed - we don't celebrate days for all the people we blew up or the countries we laid waste to, we observe days for those who died and those who offered their lives and were lucky enough not to have to follow through.

Killing is secondary, a means to an end, a recognition that simple math still matters and the other side signed up for the same task you did. The soldier is no different from a fireman or a policeman, but with a different, more savage and terrible milieu, that's why they must often kill so readily and be equipped with such gruesome machinery to do so. Ultimately however the promise made when donning those ridiculous pajamas and uncomfortable shoes has nothing to do with blowing up other people, it has to do with taking a bullet for somebody you'll never meet and will never know your name, because of some abstract principle your chain of command may never grasp.

Anyway. I only got the killing people training for about 3 hours total, and most of that was safety lessons for us automatic weapons newbies. So maybe I'm biased. Everybody should read Jarhead and Catch-22.

TOMBOT, Friday, 12 November 2004 02:54 (twenty years ago)

I'm a fucking horrible writer.

TOMBOT, Friday, 12 November 2004 02:55 (twenty years ago)

we don't celebrate days for all the people we blew up or the countries we laid waste to

Rhode Island still celebrates Victory Over Japan day, though now it's just called Victory day. Fucking awful.

Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 02:56 (twenty years ago)

VJ day is really about the troops coming home though. Remember before the bombs we were planning on sending everybody who had been in Europe over to prepare for an invasion, and possibly another 1-2 years plus of fighting. I don't think it's so imperialistic as it might seem today.

TOMBOT, Friday, 12 November 2004 03:04 (twenty years ago)

I'm a fucking horrible writer.

Anything but.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 03:06 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I know it's about soldiers coming home alive n' all; I didn't mean it as a criticism so much as just an observation; i think it's kidna telling also that we haven't gotten rid of it entirely yet but just keep changing the name to something more PC. we do love our vacation days.

Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 03:07 (twenty years ago)

i called up my dad(bush voter, drafted in '65) and my grandpa(kerry voter, volunteered '42-'48) to wish them happy veteran's day!

also, was it ever called Armistice Day here in the U.S.?

kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 12 November 2004 03:10 (twenty years ago)

volunteered '42-'48

Wow, three years after the war even. That's some dedication.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 03:11 (twenty years ago)

he floated around the S.Pacific on a submarine for most of it.

served on two cruisers before that. after he left, they eventually were sunk.

kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 12 November 2004 03:17 (twenty years ago)

There seems to be a difference in emphasis between the UK and the US about this day, still, each to their own. I'm a military brat - Dad in RAF, his Dad in Navy. My Grandfather on the other side was also in the RAF - he's the one with the best stories. My Dad was stationed in the middle east as part of the first Gulf war, but my Grandad lived there for large periods of his life. He was in bomb disposal - surprisingly it seems to be the funniest of the trades, he likes to gross me out by moving around all the shrapnel under his skin. Even after he left the RAF he lived in Saudi Arabia, with British Aerospace, and he's a fascinating guy to chat to about middle eastern politics. He was fiercely against this last war (and indeed the first Gulf war) and is very pro-palestine - to a greater extent than I am. (actually, on a side note, my Gran's brother - my great-uncle? - served in Palestine shortly after the second world war. I have some letters he wrote about guarding hills and things from zionist terrorists and the like, and he seems to have had an oddly transcendent attitude to it, mostly describing the hills and birds, buildings etc., and only vaguely interested in the danger and politics. He also seems to have been a very religious man, he writes without thought about places where "Our Saviour" had been.) Anyway, with his pictures, artifacts and anecdotes, he's a fantastic human resource. (I feel like I'm writing a Primary school essay on 'my favourite relative', and that is how the writing seems when I read it. Well, so be it. He also knows more about birds and plants than any man I know, it's a shame I don't get to see him very often - lives in Norfolk)

It might seem, odd, therefore, that I am anti-war, indeed, a pacifist. But in a way this makes a lot of sense - the servicemen I know have a lot of cynicism about war, and growing up on military bases is vaguely unpleasant, so perhaps I have an automatic dislike for guns as I associate them with my childhood. War was also something that took parents away on duty, and friends away when their families got posted. I guess I don't understand how my pacifism relates to my service background but there it is. One thing I like about the services was spending 3-4 years of my childhood in Berlin, before the fall of the wall. I have been to a communist nation, and seen soviet tanks (we were stationed at the wall, and there were always soviet tanks on the other side. No-one was scared though, because no-one in the forces thought the Russians had any desire to invade, and it was speculated that had they done so they could have taken the base before anyone was able to raise the alarm, which seems to have been the bases primary function). So yeah, you get to see a lot of different places, but moving school every 3 years sucks really badly.

Anyway, sorry for this ramble, it's after four in the morning and I'm bored.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 12 November 2004 04:18 (twenty years ago)

aargh the banks were fucking closed today! grr!

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 12 November 2004 04:23 (twenty years ago)

moving school every 3 years sucks really badly

I was lucky in that we kept coming back to Coronado, so I had some continuity -- and for the final years of my dad's service, my sister went all seven years through the same middle school and high school setup, so that was good. :-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 04:29 (twenty years ago)

military brats supposedly end up more charming or something cuz they're always the new kid. something like that. they're easy lays that's for sure.

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 12 November 2004 04:31 (twenty years ago)

In that case clearly I was not thought worthy of being taken advantage of.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 04:35 (twenty years ago)

Haha I am definitely more charming than the other kids. Oh yes.

TOMBOT, Friday, 12 November 2004 04:37 (twenty years ago)

If by 'charming' you mean 'horribly introverted', then yes, I was more charming.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 12 November 2004 04:44 (twenty years ago)

TOMBOT, I take your point. I phrased that rather badly from a military science point of view. From that POV, the war is a very abstract matter and a enemy soldier is merely another military asset that must be rendered ineffective. Killing him is just one option and not always the most tactical.

However, I observe that a lot of killing seems to happen in wars anyway and whether you're at the tip of spear or well back on the handle, your purpose is to make the spear thrust effective. Effectiveness usually entails a lot of killing. The other side rarely lays down its weapons without some encouragement of this nature.

Aimless (Aimless), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:31 (twenty years ago)

Thanks, Ned, for the nod, and Tombot for posting my general take on this observance far more eloquently than I could. Veteran's Day means something to me, having served with quite a few guys who didn't make it home from a foolish and ill-defined mission in the middle east. I'm anti-war now, and was then, but consider military service an unfortunate necessity. Respect to those in harm's way now.

Now, if only there was a commensurate national observance for the innocent victims of all wars, including those who are currently dying as a result of our government's policies. Would it be utterly meaningless to declare a national Peace Day?

briania (briania), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:13 (twenty years ago)

...

57 7th (calstars), Friday, 12 November 2004 22:37 (twenty years ago)

I know, just change my middle name to Ono now, but do I think that it would elevate the national consciousness somehow to observe in some official way those who have died on either side of our wars. I'm not suggesting a national day of atonement for being the only nation to deploy nuclear weapons against civilians, but it would be a start.

Dubya's probably going to get right to work on this one.

briania (briania), Friday, 12 November 2004 23:28 (twenty years ago)

I'm a fucking horrible writer.

And here I was thinking that was a great post.

oops (Oops), Friday, 12 November 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago)

I hope somebody played the Kinks' "Some Mother's Son" on their show somewhere

kingfish (Kingfish), Saturday, 13 November 2004 00:25 (twenty years ago)


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