why is it that the female leads in "ugly duckling" movies are always exceptionally pretty?

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just sayin'.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, give an example.

― Nowell (Nowell), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

And am I such a rockist because I think they are often prettier before their transformation into a swan? Ally Sheedy in the Breakfast Club used to make me so angry as a teenager.

― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

cuz no one wants to pay money to look at ugly chixxx duh

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Another one is that Rachel Leigh Cook/Freddie Prinze Jr. one.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, give an example.

lili taylor in dogfight.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Rachael Leigh Cook in She's All That, though I guess she was meant to be nerdy rather than a ugly ducking...and of course, she looked better before transformation.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

cuz no one wants to pay money to look at ugly chixxx duh

just harmony korine.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38266000/jpg/_38266609_princess300.jpg

― peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

pretty actress + eyeglasses = RESPECTED MARINE BIOLOGIST/GRADE A STUDENT

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.thezreview.co.uk/posters/posterimages/welcometothedollhouse2.jpg

― adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

don't forget the messy hair!

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

She's not ugly.

― Nowell (Nowell), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

The real answer to this question involves the immensely pleasurable experience (for the viewer) of buying into the status quo.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

What about Sandy's transformation in GREASE?? Va-va-voom. Slut.

― andy, Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.audreyhepburn.com/assets/life/film/popup/1964_mflady.jpg

― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

http://emp.byui.edu/raishm/films/mary.jpg

― Nemo (JND), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Because it's easier for her to be pretty at the end of the film when she's dolled up and the male lead's jaw drops open because he didn't realise how pretty she was if she was pretty at the beginning too.

― lupine lupin (lupinelupin), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Because there's a pretty homecoming queen inside of each and every one of us.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I like how screenwriters use the lazy stereotype of "lead actress in glasses" = "unattactive" for the before, which usually it's more like "lead actress in glasses" = "wanna fuck/make mixtapes for".

― kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:00 (twenty-one years ago)

The great example of this is a film called something like Frankie and Johnny, except not quite, I think, in which the unattractive woman who has never had male interest is played by Michelle Pfeiffer.

I think producers spending their lives surrounded by top actresses and aspiring starlets may skew their perspective more than a little.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I think part of it is that the characters aren't ugly beforehand, they just have a low self-esteem. It's a message to young female viewers that, hey, maybe you are really pretty and you just don't realize it yet...? I mean, that's what I got out of it when I was younger anyway.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

― Patrick Allan (adr), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoops, that'll teach me for venturing into tags!

http://www.americanphoto.co.jp/photosearch/Previews/PLX050139.jpg

― Patrick Allan (adr), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

ANNE HATHAWAY OMG

― 57 7th (calstars), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

http://home.earthlink.net/~jenolen/januma.gif

Maybe it shouldn't qualify, since Janeane does look like many attractive girls I know who don't think they're attractive, but the levels of emotional dysfunction required for the "hijinks" in this movie is a bit disconcerting. Plus she's told she ugly several times in the movie, which is just wrong.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, that movie was awful.

― Leon the Fratboy (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I worshipped her around the time this movie came out, so I can't hate it entirely. I should though. Everybody should.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

What about Cameron Diaz in Being John Malkovich?

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

But doesn't get prettied-up, she lezs it up.

― Doobie Keebler (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio otm.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

True. She does do a pretty decent job of making her traditionally pretty self seem genuinely dorky, though.

I remember going to see the Truth About Cats & Dogs in the theater because I thought Janeane was hot (I must have been about 14?).

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I saw it because I idolized Janeane. I really enjoyed that movie.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i think janeane is much hotter now that she's actually become a frumpy talk-radio spinster instead of just playing one in a movie.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

this is a rhetorical question, isn't it? they could always give someone who wasn't conventionally attractive the role, but then supposedly no-one would wanna watch that.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Girls would/Boys wouldn't

― Doobie Keebler (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

it's so people can congratulate themselves for thinking the "ugly" girls are prettier when really they're just celebutantes dressed in halloween costumes.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

otm

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The great example of this is a film called something like Frankie and Johnny, except not quite, I think, in which the unattractive woman who has never had male interest is played by Michelle Pfeiffer.

...who is possibly the most nondescript-looking woman in hollywood. there's nothing wrong with her, but there's nothing especially right with her either.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

it's so people can congratulate themselves for thinking the "ugly" girls are prettier when really they're just celebutantes dressed in halloween costumes.

they don't make these movies for guys.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:56 (twenty-one years ago)

well, there's always doctor detroit...

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

that was made for guys

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

sad, little guys

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 16 November 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

The most nondescript looking woman in Hollywood is easily Gretchen Mol, not Michelle Pfieffer! Seriously, the woman looks like a drawing on the cover of a Sweet Valley High book.

Anyway I just actually wanted to post how much that still from It's A Wonderful Life pissed me off. That movie always pisses me off, but it is actually that specific section of it that really angers me the most. IF GEORGE BAILEY NEVER LIVED HIS WIFE WOULD'VE STOPPED HAVING NORMAL VISION AND BECOME NEARSIGHTED OMG WTF.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i'll see your gretchen mol and raise you a heather locklear. no wait, virginia madsen.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh god. You just cast the. Worst. Movie. Ever. Can we pull Nicolette Sheridan out from the crypts for it?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Women have exceptionally good taste in women.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

old people to be played by lindsay wagner and donna mills

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

IF GEORGE BAILEY NEVER LIVED HIS WIFE WOULD'VE STOPPED HAVING NORMAL VISION AND BECOME NEARSIGHTED OMG WTF.

Because of all the masturbating, duh.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

What about Cameron Diaz in Being John Malkovich?

Still not attractive.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 52 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

But why is it implausible that SJP would be a woman who gets lots of dates?

xpost Streisand in the 60s could basically be Jennifer Aniston, physically and she seems to get sexy roles all the time.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I never said SJP was "implausible" in sex and the city.

And Streisand WAS hot in the 60s. It just wasn't until she started directing herself that she felt the need to ANNOUNCE how hot she was.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree nobody should be condemned to certain roles, but I also think that it's not mean or unfair to say that certain people should never be cast in certain roles.

I mean let's face it... theatre and film are like the only places where someone can legitimately be turned down for a job because they are white or black or female or male or fat or thin or whatever.

I just don't agree that SJP isn't in the range of women who plausibly play the role she does on Sex in the City. From what I've seen even, she does it well.

I haven't seen the Gap ad though. However, I find it hard to believe that anybody wouldn't look silly strutting around next to Lenny Kravitz.

xpost Anthony... Okay now I think I see what you're really getting at... In that case, is it okay for someone to announce how hot they are if they really are (by whatever standard) hot?

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait, I think I get what you mean, you're saying that when someone seems to feel the need to keep pressing the idea that they are super sexy, they become less sexy.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

right, ally. unchecked self-adoration in an actress is what inspires the straight male section audience to start saying "ahem, but no. horseface."

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Which brings us right back to what Jody said about Julia Roberts a good bit upthread:

her grating, shrill personality and smugness are what make her unattractive to me.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

aside: i almost like jennifer aniston sometimes. she's a nice greek girl from astoria. she went to my high school. her dad's on days of our lives.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

right, ally. unchecked self-adoration in an actress is what inspires the straight male section audience to start saying "ahem, but no. horseface."

So then, how come so many straight guys still thought Madonna was hot after her second album? Is it not the same for female musicians as for female actors?

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

unchecked self-adoration

hasn't hurt hasselhoff's career!

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't have anything against jennifer aniston per se, other than as an actress she's generally kind of boring. I liked her in Office Space and that's about it; I think she's just an example of someone who is better off as almost a side-character than she is as any type of lead.

xpost it's kind of hard not to consider Madonna hot, come on, look at her boobies, they're amazing.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, Madonna was still pretty young and hot after the second album, martin m. and her audience has definitely grown gayer over the years (usually a sign you're being admired for your ability to love yourself).

oh yeah, Hassellhoff's career is spectacular. wtf. we post pictures of him in a thong all the time cuz it's HOT?

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah, Hassellhoff's career is spectacular.

do you have any IDEA how much hasselhoff makes? (i mean, i don't, but i'm sure it's on the smoking gun or something.)

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

OMG ANTHONY YOU JUST WENT DOWN A STARTLING AND SCARY NEW PATH OF GAY PEOPLE DRIVE LIKE THIS.

Anthony you should maybe tell us who is more attractive, we would understand what you're trying to say better?

xpost dude, after that Hooked on a Feeling video, I believe Hasselhoff deserves every penny he makes.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:31 (twenty-one years ago)

do I really have to note that not ALL gay people do whatever? Christ. Ok, fine, this is a generalization but if you are a female actress has an increasing large gay audience and a dwindling straight male audience and yet the clothes are getting skimpier, you are not as attractive as you think.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Because all men only like artists based on their sexual attractiveness.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

that's what people are complaining about here, isn't it?

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:35 (twenty-one years ago)

fabio IS... birdface:

http://www.2dorks.com/video/fabioBird.avi

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:36 (twenty-one years ago)

xxxpost-- where do lesbian audiences fit into all this?

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, Madonna was still pretty young and hot after the second album, martin m

That was not my point. My point was that she started the self-love thing right about there in career. Your previous assertion that self-love = not attractive was being challenged, and you just countered by saying she was "still pretty young and hot" which sounds like your view is shifting again... this time to the oft (and rightly) maligned "women get uglier as they age" stance.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing at this point.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

EVERYONE knows that women with WEIRD NOSES who are OVER 30 should just go the fuck home already, can you two just accept that and move on with your lives, jesus christ.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Because all men only like artists based on their sexual attractiveness.

Hm... Never thought about it all that much.

But then my favorite band is They Might Be Giants.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

jbr asked why people think sjp is ugly. I explained that when actresses get vain they get called "horseface." and I think there's incontrivertable evidence that Streisand is vain. I think sjp is vain so I threw her in there as well.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

but no one calls Nicole Kidman horseface and I think she seems like a full of herself shrieking banshee from hell. It doesn't seem fair, SJP doesn't seem half as bad as a whole lot of hollywood actresses I can list off the top of my head.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

male audiences haven't abandoned madonna because she's not 25 anymore, they've abandoned her because she drinks a soy latte and gets a double shottay.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

OTM

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:42 (twenty-one years ago)

B-B-But... NICOLE KIDMAN IS VAIN AS FUCK!

xpost ally yay thank you!

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Nicole Kidman is weird as fuck too.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:44 (twenty-one years ago)

For the record, I'm not really arguing anything.

I do think there was a bit more to what was being said re: female actors becoming vain. I mean lip service was paid (I realize there's quite a gender gap in the frequency of these statements), but other than that the statement just seemed kinda chucked out there like:

"So and so is vain and therefore unattractive. As proof, here is one other example. Okay that's it then."

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Well plus she's a horseface.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd call Nicole Kidman an inexplicable freakish Stepford Wife waste-of-space but she's not a horseface.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:46 (twenty-one years ago)

But I don't think SJP looks like a horse either, I am more of a horseface than she is, I mean seriously, like I said earlier, ahve people not seen horses?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I was kinda kidding there.

But, yeah, vanity is the big thing. Judy Davis is still hot last time I checked.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:48 (twenty-one years ago)

j. lo is pretty, dare i say. and her vanity knows no bounds.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:54 (twenty-one years ago)

SJP has a very ugly face. She is drawn and pointy and sticklike and prickly.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, stuck up bitch, but yowza:

http://www.tiscali.nl/images/0/5/jennifer1.jpg

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah I don't think SJP is all that horsey in the face. I DO actually get why Anthony thinks she is "miscast" as a sex bomb (in general in ads, etc... not actually in any roles I've seen her play), because on some level I agree with him. I think the reason I have trouble coming out and saying it as directly as he did is because I think that SJP has an exceptional amount of talent in her chosen field, and so far I've not really seen her take on a role in a film that she didn't perform well.

So I respect her for that, and for whatever reason that outweighs any apparent vanity she may have...

It's hella different when you don't have any talent and think you're the bee's knees. Male or female.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

And yeah... I do think J. Lo is talented.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:57 (twenty-one years ago)

when i want to bring someone down from their self-assembled pedestal, i don't go after their looks -- i go after their (lack of) brains/talent/etc.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 01:59 (twenty-one years ago)

for example what bothers me about halle berry's colossally huge ego is that she's an atrocious actress.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:02 (twenty-one years ago)

SJP is horsefacey. I didn't fully turn on her until I saw the giant pictures of her looking all "sexy" in the Gap.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The men have spoken. Oogah.

Halle Berry is a horrible actress.

Personally, I haven't been wowed by SJP's talent. I thought she was pleasant in the stuff I saw her in before 1994, but everything since has been pretty yeah whatever. And what little I've seen of Sex And The City I didn't enjoy. But I've seen little.

I don't go after looks either, but if you wanna know why people ARE going after looks, I'll tell ya and I did.

I'm intrigued by the fact that Fabio and Hassellhoff are mentioned as fantastically rich, vain aging hunkos who remain adored. Women are evidently far too kind.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, we are too kind.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

what's wrong with going after looks. if you are trying to bring someone down, does it really matter how?

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Curious thread.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

and then there's ned.

― hockey family (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Indeed!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Take heed.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

You weed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:30 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/ice_princess.html

from IMDB:

The film follows a brainy ugly duckling (Trachtenberg) who realizes her dream of becoming a champion figure skater with the help of physics, a disgraced coach, three snooty ice princesses, a chorus of stage parents and the hunky boy who drives the Zamboni ice resurfacing machine.

BOOKS R BAD
BOOKS R BAD
BOOKS R BAD

― kingfish (Kingfish), Sunday, 9 January 2005 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

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