Taking Sides: John Major Vs Tony Blair

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In the long run who has proven to the most evil?

Blair gave us devolution (good) and then killed free higher education virtually overnight (bad).

Major worked on the Northern Ireland peace process (good) and destroyed the economy (bad).

Blair led us to Iraq, Major didn't do much of anything.

Who's side are you going to take? I think Blair is better than Major, by far, but I hate him on the same level I hate Bush. Maybe more because I live under his rule.

― C-Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:35 (twenty years ago)

Well they're both Tories.

Oh wait.

― Adamdrome Crankypants (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:49 (twenty years ago)

Blair: Minimum Wage.

The one thing that socialism had always campaigned for, and a number of 'socialist' PMs had 'never got round to'.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:49 (twenty years ago)

Yeah the Independent did a bit on the min. wage recently too and said just said.

Did Major ever pretend to be socialist (the Marxist ideal of a "classless society" aside, which was never going to happen under a Tory government).

― C-zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:52 (twenty years ago)

Major had a wackier cabinet.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:53 (twenty years ago)

Incidently, knowing and living with some foreigners right now - the minimum wage counts for shit if you're over from India or Eastern Europe. Employers happily bypass it.

― C.Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:56 (twenty years ago)

there's warehouse work for £1.50 an hour out there.

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:58 (twenty years ago)

minimum wage counts for shit if you're self employed as well.

have you been saving these up during the downtime calum?

tony blair is rubbish, john major was rubbish and embarrassingly inept as well.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 10:58 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but it's like anything, in that it's more actively frowned on than 'oh if you can get away with only paying cleaners 40p per hour, lucky old you then...'

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:00 (twenty years ago)

Blair never cheated on his wife, Major's son never got picked up for being wasted. You know, if you're gonna be a bastion of morality then I want you to control your kids.

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:17 (twenty years ago)

Bringing the economy into political comparisons is always going to be problematic, as you can't rerun the tape with the other guys in charge and see whether the economy does any better or worse, and we all know that in a global economy there are so many other factors affecting whether a country does well as much as the government of the day.

Is it better to be a basically decent bloke in charge of a largely evil uncaring party (Major) or

a basically two-faced, ambitious, conniving bloke in charge of a largely caring, socially conscious party (Blair)?

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:24 (twenty years ago)

Major was also the rep. of Huntingdon = Huntingdon Life Sciences... not so sure how "caring" he was then (although I'm persuaded he was a pretty decent chap fighting a losing battle with a centre right party so we're in agreement).

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Option two, clearly.

The number of things that the Tory opposition claim against the ruling Labour Govt, which would be considered 'fair game' if it was them in power.

1) "Two Jags" Prescott. Umm right, and how many cars would yer average Tory Cabinet Minister have?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Two

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:29 (twenty years ago)

three

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 11:55 (twenty years ago)

the meaning of the 'two jags' jibe is not that he has two cars and that's it, though. it's the vanity and deceit: all the working-class-lads-made good shit that prescott and blunkett especially peddle. it's the gap between the image and the reality that's funny -- cf prescott's interesting real estate ways.

― henry miller, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:01 (twenty years ago)

QUARTOZE

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:02 (twenty years ago)

yeah, and that's all fair enough (xpost).

It's just that what passes for 'comedy' amongst the tories is based on that. "Yeah, but we can, cuz we're Tories and that's what we're supposed to do."

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:05 (twenty years ago)

OK, here's a question - if Portillo was in charge could the Tories win back some favour?

"Portillo - it means, look out behind ya".

Seriously though, he seems a bit to liberal to be a Tory doesn't he?

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:25 (twenty years ago)

They all do, as soon as they leave politics.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:28 (twenty years ago)

portillo's self-reinvention as a "liberal" I find a bit unconvincing. I really, really am glad he has 0 chance of shaping the political kultur of this country in any significant way.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:35 (twenty years ago)

So many, on retiring, fall into one of these categories

1) Seems a nice person, level headed, affable. (Haig, Portillo)
2) No discernable talent or brain (Hamilton, Johnson)

Although, to be fair, Boris never really changed as such.

Still, you cant help but think "Blimey, you nearly were in charge! danger danger!"

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:38 (twenty years ago)

Then you got ID Smith who leaves the front bench and just comes across as a smug, right wing moron in whatever form.

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:47 (twenty years ago)

Mark, have you forgotten pre-gay Portillo? Not such a "nice" person really...

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:48 (twenty years ago)

C_Zar, true true.

Mark, I did say After leaving pol.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:49 (twenty years ago)

Actually, IDS = Alistair Sim, it just struck me...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 12:50 (twenty years ago)

For pushing rail privatisation to prove his big Thatcherite dick existed, a pox upon him for all eternity.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:30 (twenty years ago)

You know, bloody good point!

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:34 (twenty years ago)

as much as people have been turned off Blair, are they actually going to vote against him in the election?

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:42 (twenty years ago)

No discernable talent or brain (Hamilton

nonsense, he won The Weakest Link once you know...as did Oxbridge don Johnny Vegas...

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:44 (twenty years ago)

No. But I will likely vote Lib Dem instead of a more left leaning party. I think the third way could prove the best way.

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:45 (twenty years ago)

i don't think the Lib Dems are capitalising on the situation anywhere near as well as they could do. i imagine the turnout will be only marginally higher than last time unless something extraordinary occurs in the next few months. it reminds me of when the league table is really tight at Christmas with four teams at the top separated by only a few points yet in May Man Utd still romp home by about 8 or 9 pts.

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:52 (twenty years ago)

The Lib Dems suffer from having a leader that does not seem nearly as pissed off as he should be. If he had the anger and drive then he could lead the party above the Tories, as it happens they've kinda dropped out of sight after a build up of support. Shame. I like Charles Kennedy though (much moreso than Menzies Campbell). I feel that if they had a Tommy Sheridan as leader they'd be fine.

― C_Zar, Wednesday, 22 December 2004 13:54 (twenty years ago)

Then again, you think Pete Doherty is a bit angry and has something to say.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 14:02 (twenty years ago)

The Lib Dems suffer from having a leader that does seem clearly as pissed as he shouldn't be

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 16:37 (twenty years ago)

Major was a idiot, Blair is evil.

― Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri), Thursday, 23 December 2004 12:26 (twenty years ago)

Blair is possibly evil, but he's not Thatcher level evil. Yet.

― Ceezer, Thursday, 23 December 2004 12:27 (twenty years ago)

Blair is not evil at all you silly billies. Nor is Bush. they are genuinely trying to do what they think is the best course of action. Of course we disagree with them, but demonisation is an immature response.

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 12:37 (twenty years ago)

Major's son never got picked up for being wasted. You know, if you're gonna be a bastion of morality then I want you to control your kids. You obviously don't have any kids. I take it you never let your hair down as an adolescent. However, spot on re Kennedy's inaction.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 23 December 2004 13:53 (twenty years ago)

I never drank until I was way over legal age. I did cause some trouble in school, certainly, but nothing to do with anything like drink or drugs - more the odd bit of scraping in class, which I had grown out of by the age of 15 anyway. If my mum, my single mum, could bring me up well behaved and not out getting pissed at 16 then I expect the same from my so-called leaders.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 13:56 (twenty years ago)

what's wrong with getting pissed at 16?

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 13:59 (twenty years ago)

Scraping? You mean fighting? Obviously violence at school is nowhere near as bad as having a drink to celebrate the end of your exams.
Fair play to you and your mum, your single mum.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:00 (twenty years ago)

When are you supposed to? He was celebrating after his A levels, yeah?

Your mum, your single mum, presumably was home when not working? Actually, I'd rather not pursue this, your life is your own. as is Blair Minor.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:02 (twenty years ago)

No. I was never in a fight. I meant typical shit that disrupts a classroom. And don't get lippy. I don't see you telling me even your name. I'm the most forthright person on this forum among all your anonymous postees.

P.S. No, my mother often worked nights.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:02 (twenty years ago)

I'm not anon. So, the reason you did not go out drinking at 16 was because of your mum? I'm not decrying it, just that if you did, how would it be your mum's fault?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:04 (twenty years ago)

I'd say scrapping in class was a more heinous crime than getting pissed. Not that I'm suggesting either are major transgressions.

I fully expect that my son will do some stupid things before (and probably after) he grows up. If it's nothing worse than a little underage drinking I'll be relieved. I started drinking in pubs at 14, so I may not be the best role model however.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:06 (twenty years ago)

Mark, to clarify, I'm not saying I did not because of my upbringing (although I think it had something to do with it, certainly) but I am saying that for someone is a position such as the PM, who preaches HIS moral authority on us all, he'd better be damn sure he can control his own kids. Remember, this is the same person who's radical education re-shuffles have included putting the onus for a kid's behavior on the parent (i.e. fining parents for truancy was one of his proposals). If he wants to make this link between badly behaved kids and their upbringing then I reserve the right to judge how his children act. Politicians should be the cleanest people on earth, as far as I'm concerned.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:08 (twenty years ago)

Well, judge them, absolutely.

Cleanest people? No I don't think so. I want them to be living under the same pressures as the rest of us, and to screw up once in a while. They should be clean and scrupulous regarding the handling of the economy, business, taxation, and all that. Their home lives are as affected by the outside world as the rest of us, and so it should be.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:12 (twenty years ago)

The last thing I want is Politicians holier than 'us'. Clergy, fine thats their task in life.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:13 (twenty years ago)

considering some of the rumours i couldn't help over-reading, under-age drinking is among the least of Blair's worries wrt to the welfare of his children, JSL

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:13 (twenty years ago)

We'll need to agree to disagree then. I think Prince Harry should have been bloody forced into manual labour in a Salvation Army's restuarant's kitchen for smoking an ILLEGAL drug (regardless of what we think of its safety or otherwise). The future King, paid for by our tax money, smokes an illegal substance? Well, quite frankly, you lost your right to be any moral authority over me bud - and you should be cast out and forced to work for a living.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:15 (twenty years ago)

i blame the Libertines, fuelling the fire of teenage rebellion, against which the nation's poor parents have no adeqaute means of dowsing given their own insurmountable problems.

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:15 (twenty years ago)

Jack Straw is famous for being anti-cannabis, but he famously got embarrassed by his kid(s). If that had'nt happened, the legislation would have been wound tighter.

There is a tendancy for govts to legislate against things that they feel should not be encouraged. The moment they are all 'cleaner' than the rest of us, is the time they feel justified in banning fried egg sandwiches for being too unhealthy.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:16 (twenty years ago)

it's unrealistic to expect 'better' behaviour from leader figures and their families. as it is to expect 'better' behaviour from pop stars, soap actors and Premiership footballers. it only highlights further the absurdity of cultivating societies based around a false democratic paradigm yet with the focus on an individual (scapegoat) for whatever problems inevitably occur as a result of that.

still, looking forward to that Daft Punk album...

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:19 (twenty years ago)

Actually, now I sort of agree with you. Moral leads should not come from the Royal Family. Or politicians. Or sportsmen. Or the guitarist from the libertines. Its from yourself, your family, those around you. Who to take inspiration from?

There are many fans of Pete. I believe that more are concerned about him and less of them are 'wow smack is cool cuz pete does it...' which is a kind of moral leadership in an arse about face way...

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:19 (twenty years ago)

xpost

Steve if the rumours are true it would make Ewan's misdemeanor look even more trivial than it was.

I have my doubts of him as a politician but I'm sure he's an exemplary,loving, caring parent.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:20 (twenty years ago)

(I was agreeing sort of with Calz, obv. Frankenstein I obv agree with too)

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:21 (twenty years ago)

You know, stuff canabis and this legalisation nonsense. It's a waster drug that transforms morons into bigger morons. I lived with a stoner less than a month ago and he was a twat and seemingly addicted to the stuff.

P.S. Mark I never said I respect Pete for his drug intake. Please.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:21 (twenty years ago)

I know you said that about pete. I wasn't insinuating that. It's more that these people are held up as supposed examples. I never called for the legalisation of cannabis either (my opinions here are not the point), more that what gets banned is more what the powers that be don;t like much.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:23 (twenty years ago)

I remember that there was some serious debate about banning the Sex Pistols, back in the day. Actually preventing access to free speech. Yes, it didn't happen. But that is the sort of thing that should never have been even debated!

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:24 (twenty years ago)

Oh of course, freedom of speech is imperative.

Then again, none of us like when the BNP hold a rally do we? But should they have the right to? That's a valid question, I think.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:31 (twenty years ago)

Again, if it was banned, there could be no moral stand point against it.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:32 (twenty years ago)

Anyhow, back to the biscuit:

John Major always seemed a nice bloke. In charge of bastards (his words). Good cop, bad cops?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:34 (twenty years ago)

But should they have the right to?

yes. i suppose you should have the right to start all your bullshit threads as well. i'll just have to tolerate both.

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:37 (twenty years ago)

This is a bullshit thread? I think I start a lot of really good threads, but it's the more ridiculous stuff that you guys decide to post 200 replies to. That's not my fault.

― Ceezar, Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:38 (twenty years ago)

i didn't say this was one of the bullshit threads.

― Frankenstein On Ice (blueski), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:39 (twenty years ago)

(Thread dies)

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 23 December 2004 15:33 (twenty years ago)

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