Winston Churchill: C/D?

I was thinking about him yesterday when I was suffering from having partied to hard for Andrew the night before.

eh, thanks to Mr Quisling, a Quisling is a general term for a TRAITOR.

I recommend reading a history of modern Ireland if you want to find out about the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Now that I think of it, it was Lloyd George who seduced the Irish negotiators.

He was notoriously impressed with Mussolini at first but I think it's fair to credit him with being an early voice against Nazism and German re-armament/militarism. Since he also railed early against Bolshevism, he can at least be considered, generally, as an anti-totalitarian though his positions on the colonies was patronizing at best and often merely reprehensible.

has anyone read william manchester's churchill books? i've got both on my shelves but haven't had a chance to dig into either yet.

for that matter, has anyone read churchill's own books? he always gets compared to gibbon, which is a good thing, but i have a hard time imagining he's as funny as gibbon.

I've seen the odd excerpt that makes me think you're right. Too up himself to do funny.

Someone paid £1M for one of his paintings the other day.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/14/nwinnie114.xml

pro (and admittedly a very very big one)
- stood up to and beat Hitler

cons (and there are many)
- Gallipoli
- wanted to gas the Kurds (is there were Saddam got the idea?)
- directly responsible for the 1924/1925 crash of the British economy by returning the UK to the gold standard and did so at a disasterously high rate
- wanted to machine-gun strikers who were out of work and on the streets largely b/c he had fucked up the British economy
- was at least indirectly responsible for the Great Crash of 1929 b/c the overpriced British pound led to a speculative bubble in American securities
- was for a time fondly predisposed towards Benito Mussolini
- was a ruthless and bloody-minded imperialist who deserves at least some the blame for unnecessary bloodshed in Ireland, India and Malaysia
- even his WWII record is tainted by his sellout of the Poles to Stalin, his approval of the firebombing of Dresden
- one of the godfathers of Euroskepticism (i guess that whether that's good or bad depends on where you stand on that issue)

i guess you can tell that i'm not a big fan of Mr. Churchill.

churchill's a fat fuckup imperialist racist with a soggy prose style who saved the planet. i love him; i wish he were here.

i also shudder to think with how Churchill would have dealt with Gandhi and India after 1945. esp. if the matter had been postponed until the UK developed nuclear weapons.

even his WWII record is tainted by his sellout of the Poles to Stalin

Was there a realistic alternative at the time? I agree with most of your other negatives though.

even his WWII record is tainted by his sellout of the Poles to Stalin

wasn't that more roosevelt's scene?

his approval of the firebombing of Dresden

didn't drop enough ordnance on the bloody germans as far as i'm concerned

i also shudder to think with how Churchill would have dealt with Gandhi and India after 1945. esp. if the matter had been postponed until the UK developed nuclear weapons.

― i want to eat unicorn meat (Eisbaer), Friday, January 28, 2011 6:40 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

Woah, that's quite a fucking speculation!

Ridiculous speculation if you ask me

even his WWII record is tainted by his sellout of the Poles to Stalin

wasn't that more roosevelt's scene?

Yes.

He was a vile Tory dobber who is well thought of because he was eloquent and against appeasement.

If it wasn't for him we'd've been at best Vichy France until either:

• the german empire transformed into something more benevolent
• the german empire collapsed and the US invaded or
• the Soviets got here to liberate us

the germans couldn't actually invade but a halifax govt would have left britain as quiet collaborators (eg sweden) and left hitler free to prepare properly to invade russia and possibly win

Amongst the other things that neo-cons gloss over in his record is the fact that he was once a Liberal and President of the Budget League that supported Lloyd George's war on poverty that introduced, one hundred and one years ago, compulsory health insurance, old age pensions, labor exchanges, and unemployment insurance.

He was a vile Tory dobber who is well thought of because he was eloquent and against appeasement.

this is arguably true but people who say it tend to underestimate what "eloquent and against appeasement" really meant, even if they say they don't. the "eloquent" part, for instance, doesn't just mean he said some neat stuff on the radio about beaches--it means he utterly destroyed all british support for appeasement and collaboration and held the island under bombardment while convincing FDR to send in the cavalry. like he's not just some lucky bastard who gave a couple good speeches to people who couldn't see through his disgusting facade.

alfred knows much more about this stuff than i do but as far as i'm concerned churchill actually would have to have nuked gandhi before i'd even begin to wish for his absence from history.

Been reading Orwell's take on things at the start of WWII, circa 1940-41. For him , Churchill's great saving grace was that he wanted to win the war and defeat the Axis, not squabble a while then sign a peace treaty that kept the fascists in control of Europe. There were plenty of English toffs at that time who would have been glad with the latter approach, thinking Hitler would just turn east and smash those nasty commies while they drew dividends and looked on.

yeah there were plenty of people, important people, in 30s britain who thought the nazis were at worst an amusing way of dealing a good hard clip to the ear of those red bastards. and if probably the most scrupulous and articulate socialist in the history of the english language can back churchill i'm not exactly comfortable with rolling my eyes at him now.

Not to be glib, but as the Mandela thread revive showed, great men aren't good men.

Often, great men are merely essential men.

there are few more essential men than churchill--so much so that aspiring essential men, like george w. bush, inevitably invoke him.

some clarifications:

1. no, there wasn't much that Churchill (or anyone else) could have done for the Poles (at least nothing very pleasant) and he wasn't as responsible for the ensuing Soviet domination of Poland. but he was also instrumental in shifting the Polish population from the parts of pre-WWII Poland that were annexed by the Soviets to what is now western Poland (which had been German territory pre-WWII). that may have been the best situation possible, but it also caused a lot of suffering among the displaced Poles and Germans and continues to be a source of discontent between modern Poland and Germany.
2. as for Churchill and India: no, he probably wouldn't have used nukes on the Indians (if that problem had been delayed until the UK had nuclear arms). i can see him being even more intransigent with the Indians which might have delayed a still-inevitable Indian independence and made it even more of a mess.

as for him being "essential" -- well, i never disputed that point wr2 the Nazis.

and made it even more of a mess.

Tbf, Attlee and Mountabtten mucked this up and I have difficulty imagining it much worse.

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-a-good-speech-should-be-like-a-woman-s-skirt-long-enough-to-cover-the-subject-and-short-winston-churchill-45-29-35.jpg

whoops

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-a-good-speech-should-be-like-a-woman-s-skirt-long-enough-to-cover-the-subject-and-short-winston-churchill-45-29-35.jpg

http://billanddavescocktailhour.com/the-churchill-wit/

lol fuck ‘em

British tabloids see 'snub' in Biden’s rejection of Churchill bust amid Oval Office makeover https://t.co/Ss6W2h53hs

— Adam Taylor (@mradamtaylor) January 21, 2021

oh god don't make start accepting Biden's phony baloney US Irishness as a good thing, because it definitely is boiling all the right piss rn!

cesar chavez is in the oval office now though

It's imperative that someone source Joe a bust of James Connolly.

some wag on twitter has already photoshopped a James Connolly portrait in there.

I'm not gonna read a whole article about a bust in the WH, but did anyone consider that it might have been Harris who objected to venerating that genocidal imperialist?

(ap) With a Hibs scarf on hopefully.

Churchill has had his mete of praise. Cesar Chavez is plenty worthy of the honor.

he was a racist dick too

not on the same scale but

I'm not gonna read a whole article about a bust in the WH, but did anyone consider that it might have been Harris who objected to venerating that genocidal imperialist?

chavez's accomplishments were larger than his personal failings

Extremely, EXTREMELY rare British W. https://t.co/6hLMiFlDQH

— Meltdown Maeby (@MissPavIichenko) May 16, 2023

community note: actually, churchill did not say this incredibly racist thing. he somehow said something five times as racist https://t.co/Y58dcXROMV

— beef/harpo (@beeflethals) November 6, 2023

I love living in a country that worships a racist potato

Bet unperson is a fan

We could all make unflattering guesses about other ilxors' unspken thoughts and unseen actions. But how about lets don't post them on ilx.

great work finding an objectionable opinion from churchill guys THE WORK continues eh

A funny tweet is the WORK, if you must ask..

rip big man

I will never understand the urge, from people that are not of the targeted group, to repeat racist quotes in the guise of denouncing them.

best avoided in general but the churchill cult is such an unquestioned part of UK political culture that it helps to remind people what it's really about

A cult as healthy in America. We're not taught about the racism, the 1945 election, anything before he formed his first government.

that's sad because unlike us you don't have obvious material reasons to be invested in the glory of the british empire, unless it's just to keep the special relationship going

He gave good quotes, amused the far superior FDR (who treated him like a charming has-been), and Stood Up to the Nazis. That's all we know.

No, my in-laws are partly Polish descent and they think Churchill is one of the worst people who ever lived.

so did stalin (except the FDR bit but churchill's friendship made up for that) xp

we don't know much more than Americans do but we do have a vague idea about his involvement in the colonies which we try to keep vague because looking into too much could give the whole game away (the game being how we got all this stuff)

I'm glad other parts of the world have a more realistic assessment and the UK can't keep its eyes and ears closed forever though we're trying our best

of course Poland is one of the many places he totally fucked over

churchill cult is hardly unquestioned in uk. id describe any attempt to label it as such as posturing tbh.

It's not unquestioned.

That particular quote is being reproduced now so people can see what role he might have played in this disaster. It's not just some bit of hate speech from some small town far right thug.

I just know that he drank scotch for breakfast, which I admire

Correct. It's hate speech from a guy who's been dead for about six decades and who was relegated to painting bad watercolors about two decades before he died.

No, my in-laws are partly Polish descent and they think Churchill is one of the worst people who ever lived.

They love Thatcher though.

"unquestioned" is an exaggeration I meant the narratives pushed by media and politicians and what they feel they have to / can't say about him

however I do find a lot of public sentiment still somewhere around "he had some dodgy opinions but he was great in the war" and both of those ideas need interrogating more

I like this questioning -- which has happened -- to lead him to being at least a polarising figure, which has not happened.

Part of doing that is broadcasting what he has actually said, loud and clear for more people to hear.

They love Thatcher though.

― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Tuesday, 7 November 2023 07:49 (nine hours ago) link

What?

In context it makes sense. Many Poles are very conservative, largely through the influence of the Catholic church. Churchill is hated because of his role in the Yalta conference, where Poland was handed over to the godless communists. Thatcher gets big ups for her anti-union policies, which conservative Poles see through the lens of fighting socialism, which they see as the soft version of communism.

It sounded like he was pre-judging them based on a small bit of info.

Thanks for explaining why the pre-judging makes sense.

/s

The Thatcher and Reagan defeated communism narrative is, or was, very popular in Eastern Europe. Not exactly sure what Thatcher did to defeat it though.

Oh I don't think my in-laws believe that.

I didn't mean your in-laws loved Thatcher, I'm sure plenty of Polish didn't or don't!

That's a relief.

During the 2020 US Presidential election count, I saw a BBC newscaster misspeak that Thatcher was tweeting about the election (quickly corrected to Theresa May).

So Thatcher is still perceived as extremely powerful.

Correct. It's hate speech from a guy who's been dead for about six decades and who was relegated to painting bad watercolors about two decades before he died.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Tuesday, 7 November 2023 00:16 (nineteen hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

He only resigned as PM in 1955, just 10 years before his death. He was therefore able to preside over a series of British massacres in Kenya.

Eden was a ghastly posh ghoul as well, but I have to confess I was impressed with his fluent grasp of speaking French in The Sorrow and The Pity. Not as impressed with what he was saying which was basically don't judge Vichy collaborators until you have experienced occupation from a malign foreign power yourself. Still, I would bet there aren't any French home owning Tory mofos who could speak French as fluently as this fucker could!

Britain was never going to be invaded by Germany, the kriegsmarine didn't have the gear and their air force was overhyped and the RAF had better radar tech and Hitler was obsessed with colonising the east. I think any prick could have been in Churchill's place and it wouldn't have made much difference to the outcome in the domestic air defense battle or in the wider war.

That's a relief.

During the 2020 US Presidential election count, I saw a BBC newscaster misspeak that Thatcher was tweeting about the election (quickly corrected to Theresa May).

So Thatcher is still perceived as extremely powerful.

That's because American politicians only know two British Prime Ministers - Churchill and Thatcher.

Yeah

Correct. It's hate speech from a guy who's been dead for about six decades and who was relegated to painting bad watercolors about two decades before he died.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Tuesday, 7 November 2023 00:16 (nineteen hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

He only resigned as PM in 1955, just 10 years before his death. He was therefore able to preside over a series of British massacres in Kenya.

Ok.

Im going to explain in detail why Churchill is a villain. For the 31% of you who voted as a positive just read this and tell me afterwards. https://t.co/EMeIzDK3JN

— Ireland / Anna (@ireland) January 20, 2018

Lol

#OtD 30 Jan 1965 British ex-Prime Minister Winston Churchill's funeral took place. Dock cranes dipped as his barge passed but it later emerged that dockworkers had to be paid extra to do it as they "didn't like" him. Learn more in the thread below! pic.twitter.com/sENGXE3luX

— Working Class History (@wrkclasshistory) January 30, 2025