Panorama : Scotlands 'Secret' Shame - Sectarianism : Celtic & Rangers.

Is religion the problem or is it mainly football (im aware that other fans of teams see themselves as Protestant or Catholic clubs too. Airdrie and Motherwell have suffered in the past because of this)

I can't begin to understand what fuels Scottish sectarianism. It can't be the ancient historical grievances that are saved and treasured as excuses. In Ireland there's at least the history of colonisation to provide a partial explanation. I know that my Dad, English, Working Class, more or less agnostic, is deeply antagonistic to Catholicism. His family's religious roots are mainly Methodist/dissenting from what I know. When I tackle him on the issue, he says that Catholicism is a "brain-washing" religion. If I point out that that could be said of most religions, he just denies it and stops trying to justify his prejudice. I guess in part, like a lot of Midlanders, he's embittered by memories of the Birmingham pub bombings in the 70s. Perhaps the Glasgow thing is as much about rival turf as anything? In other words, if religion wasn't the issue would people find another excuse to belong to a gang and demonise their rivals' gang?

Sorry, I'm rambling. My short answer is, sometimes people can do really fucking stupid things.

I think it isn't something I could/should ever try to understand/explain.

I am a Celtic supporter and a Roman Catholic. No-one believes me that these facts are totally coincidental. I am not Irish and I don't go looking for some connection to Ireland to justify my supporting of Celtic.

I was a Catholic because my dad was, I supported Celtic because they won things (I was eight when I decided that for myself, I was kind of simple like that). Only once in my life have I ever felt frightened of Rangers fans, and that was on an Old Firm match day in about 1991 when a stupid supporters' bus driver thought driving past the Loudon Tavern (pub of choice for the UVF-glorying Orange-marching knuckledragging element of the Rangers support) was a good idea. Cue brick through window and a 17 year old girl from the Highlands vowing never to go to another Old Firm game (I did go back, and have never encountered anything like that since).

The reason I never grew up with this is because it is not a Scottish problem. It is a West of Scotland problem (I think, I'm not sure how far it stretches from Glasgow) - it was nothing I ever encountered growing up in the North of Scotland.

Yes, there are nutters, I'm not denying it. I just don't come across it that often, and I now live in the West of Scotland and should be in a position to notice it, given that I attend all home matches at Parkhead. I just don't. I know it happens sometimes, but, as has been said, people can do fucking stupid things.

I know there is far more to it that this, and it's just that I don't associate with the twats that fuel it. I don't begin to pretend to have a clue what goes on in the minds of the people who kill people, but that counts for any murderer with any motive. Surely the fact that these people are prepared to kill for any reason at all means that their predisposal to rational thought about anything is a bit suspect? I strongly suspect that if it wasn't about the football, it would be about pint spillage, "looking at mah burd", or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I may come back to this at some point.

Scottish sectarianism mostly survives in football, but it's a remnant of something that was strongest in the second half of the 18th century. The defeat of the Jacobite rebels firmly cemented a divide between the Scots rulers in Edinburgh - who saw themselves as civilised Germanic people - and the wild, uncouth Irish who lived in the Highlands and didn't even speak Scots. This was glossed over in the early 19th Century with the appearance of Walter Scott-inspired Romanticism, which led to the invention of kilts and tartan, and their adoption by the land-owning classes (following the fashion lead set by Scott fanboy George IV). When the industrial revolution came along, it was Glasgow, more than anywhere else, that absorbed the thousands of dispossesed Highland "Irish" peasants; so it was Glasgow that remained the hotbed of Highland/Lowland tension.

Some Scottish historians would maintain that the divide dates back far beyond the 18th Century. The south-east has been primarily Northumbrian Saxon since the defeat of the Gododdin at Catterick (in 670-something), and there is place-name evidence that suggests that, if the east coast was ever Gaelic-speaking, it was only for a short period between 800 (when Kenneth MacAlpin became the first Gael to be King of the Picts) and the 13th century. This revolves around place-names with 'Pit' in them, which are heavily concentrated along the east coast (although I'm not sure how Pitlochry fits into the theory). Since medieval times, I was told, 'pit' has been Gaelic for 'cunt', so it's unlikely that placenames containing it would have survived.

Then again, I live near Scunthorpe. So it's not necessarily a very good theory, that one.

The thing that is *very* obvious about Scottish freemasonry is that it crosses class barriers much more than in England. English freemasonry is seen very much as a middle-class pursuit: police inspectors, lawyers, judges, businessmen, local councillors. In Scotland it crosses class divides (although not necessarily within individual lodges).

I think this first hit me when I visited Kinross Sunday Market, and found stalls and stalls of cheap and tawdry Masonic jewellery, ornaments and so on. You don't get *that* at Sunday markets in England.

The 1st Orange Lodge was in maybole, Ayrshire i believe. So It certainly didnt start in Glasgow. Most small villages do have them, so its certainly a community thing. I know some catholics who grew up in said villages and they said there was never any trouble and a lot of catholics watched the parades with their non catholic neighbours.
If there is trouble its not the marchers, its the drunken neanderthals who follow it.

I do remember a story in the daily record back in the 80s when Roy Aitken (who wasnt a catholic ) and Tommy Burns(who is very much a catholic) joined the masons.
I dont know too much about the masonic lodge, and I dont think they do stop catholics joining if they meet the criteria, but i would assume they cant hold 'office'.
The one criteria they must meet is to believe in god. And i wonder how many non believers do join just for the old benefits of the handshake.

I wonder if Donald Findlay QC is in both. He is living proof its not just a working class problem anyway.

Most people in Inverness when I was growing up supported a "big" team as well, usually Celtic, Rangers or Aberdeen, and it was mostly Caley fans who supported Rangers. Maybe there was a link with freemasonry (I know it's a source of much "humour" directed at Rangers), maybe it's just because they both wore blue strips (Chelsea used to be the other big team to identify with for the Caley fans). I defy anyone to provide me with evidence of the sectarian divide in Inverness.

I don't take offence at Union Jacks. Are they really offensive or sectarian? Am I really that stupid and naive? If a Union Jack waving Raith Rovers supporting freemason stabs a Celtic fan in the street, is that necessarily sectarian? Football related? (I'm talking just now, that they are in separate leagues and it's not going to be in the aftermath of a Raith v Celtic match).

What about when Hibs and Hearts fans fight after matchs? Aberdeen v Hibs? St Mirren v Morton? Does religion even come into it? Why is it automatically sectarianism or bigotry when Celtic and Rangers clash? Why can't it sometimes just be classed as rivalry like it is with any other teams?

(xpost, I've seen a republican march in the East End of Glasgow. i didn't go looking for it, I was just driving past when it was on)

Orange Order membership is rather more public - it's not as if Masonic lodges have parades every year.

I'm fairly sure that there *was* a James Connolly (sp?) Society march in Edinburgh within the past two or three years; but I'm not 100% certain on that.

since given rk's racial politics this is a bit unexpected it, i kind of interpret it thus: above all, RK liked to chat with and hear stories told by ppl from anywhere, and the lodge wz somewhere where ppl could let down their guard and be intimate and discuss stuff they wouldn't normally let on abt outside their own communities

BUT being a mason didn't give a hindu, say, any genuine political heft within the empire

ie i suspect it's a compensatory inclusiveness not a subversive inclusiveness

I think you have to ask why they are waving union jacks. When i have asked someone their answer has always been "because im a proddy".
I don't expect much logic from people like that anyway.

As for other teams rivalry its always geography. This isnt the case with celtic and rangers as they are supported far outside of glasgow and nearly always because of what religion they or one of their parents were
Thats not to say you dont get catholic rangers fans or non catholic celtic fans as i have met a few in my time.
My old best mate was not a catholic neitherw as his mother but his dad was and was a celtic supporter and got taken to the odd game as a kid.
Neither him or his father sang the songs or anything like that.

FWIW you dont get much trouble at games. Just the chants(thats maybe because of the policing). The pubs and in the street nowhere near the games is where it happens. All over Scotland.

I am a Catholic, I go to all the games, I don't sing any of "the songs" (I presume you mean the rebel songs rather than "there's only one John Hartson" - I sing stuff like that, and no, I don't sing the Neil Lennon one).

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Mine is that I don't like being labelled because of a couple of things I am (Catholic, a Celtic supporter) and having people purport to assume a greater load of things about me on the back of this teensy bit of knowledge.

surely among the many thousand ilxors there are actual real masons? (mason kate will probbly not click on this as it's football-related)

This is not borne out in any fact however, though it was an argument rife when Celtic once went about a season and a half without getting any penalties. The fact that we had the worse forward line in living memory may have had more to do with it, but the paranoid masses wouldn't have any fun with that.

*digs big hole, crawls in*

I never said all celtic (or rangers) fans sing the songs. But many do at least at the old firm games but dont at any other time. If fans do sing sectarian songs do you think that makes them bigoted? or should it be dismissed as harmless fun by football fans.

I don't assume anything about you. I am genuinely interested in your points of view, which is refreshing from most old firm fans that I encounter outside of ILX.
I never said you support Celtic because you're a catholic. But its a fact that the majority of old firm fans do because of what religion they are*
( *The fact that many have never been near a church in their lives doesn't stop them from thinking theyre protestant or catholic, but thats another debate entirely)

My points are:

Its not a west of scotland problem. Theres bigotry all over the country. The football side is possibly more in the west of scotland, but its not exclusive to football. It happens amongst lawyers and business men and other parts of society.

If it doesnt exist in inverness then thats great, but sectarianism doesnt always just manifest itself in violence. Its a belief, and attitude that is engrained in scottish society. Its not class restricted. Sometimes it shows up in football(probably most often) but it can exist in other parts of society. Perhaps someone here has witnessed this? I have heard all the stories of job adverts with "catholics need not apply" and vice versa up until as recently as the 1960s.

100 years ago didn't the Church Of Scotland try to get immigration from Ireland stopped? That just doesnt happen anymore.
The churches seem to work together to attempt to tackle the problem. Relationships between churches have never been better.

Instead of sweeping it under the carpet im glad the scottish executive are trying to do something. I am also glad that in recent years both celtic and rangers have tried to do something too.
By getting it all out in the open sectarianism is now being shown as unnaceptable,whereas in the past it was just quietly accepted as being part and parcel of being scottish or as a 'west of scotland thing' Now its accepted it happens all over the country.

Thats why its referred to as a 'secret shame' as it was always swept under the carpet and seen as only a west coast problem by those who didn't want to admit their part of the country had the problem or didnt want to admit that they were bigoted too.

An english friend once asked me to explain the sectarianism problem in Scotland. I couldn't. I don't even understand it myself. I doubt anyone can.

As for the masons thing some do genuinely think it happens, a celtic supporters club once hired a private detective to find out if the referee for a league cup final against rangers was a member of the orange lodge. This was not condoned by Celtic btw. I think they withdrew official celtic endorsement of the supporters club.

Ailsa> could you perhaps explain something to me?
How did all that "celtic minded" nonsense start? Did someone actually say that meaning that celtic should have a catholic manager, or was it all blown out of proportion and misinterpreted?
It all just blew up out of nothing and i don't even know who was supposed to have even said it.

According to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopaedia:

"...Catholics since 1738 are, under penalty of excommunication, incurred ipso facto, and reserved to the pope, strictly forbidden to enter or promote in any way Masonic societies. The law now in force pronounces excommunication upon "those who enter Masonic or Carbonarian or other sects of the same kind, which, openly or secretly, plot against the Church or lawful authority and those who in any way favour these sects or do not denounce their leaders and principal members."

Freemasonry was initially dedicated to the promotion of Enlightenment ideals of knowledge, free-thinking, cosmopolitanism etc. I guess as those ideals became the dominant Western ideology, so Masonry became more conservative. Aren't the various Scottish Rites kind of different in their emphasis though? A lot of Priory of Sion/Templar nuts have an inordinate interest in them.

I am not sure if that was what was meant, he may just have meant he wasnt a Celtic fan(Brown has always been seen as a rangers fan, and was a director at motherwell, and along with brother Craig supported Hamilton when they were boys, so certainly he did not grow up a celtic fan) but I do remember a few celtic fans certainly taking it that way about not being catholic and Davie Provan and Derek Johnstone tearing into them in a radio clyde phone in ,and everyone else using it as a stick to beat celtic fans with for being bigots.

I would like to know the full story though. I hoped you might have known.

X-post. The Knights Of St Columba is the 'catholic masons' isn't it?
And I believe theres different sects to that too.

Some others have been mentioned(being an actual member of a church or the masons) and some have not.
Usually segregated schools get the blame and we haven't even touched on that subject yet...

xpost. Thanks Ailsa, looking now.
So what about segregated schooling then?
How much can we blame that?

I for one am not sure it is to blame at all.

it IS a middleclass "secret" society, and english radical middleclass activity got to (and past?) its revolution 150 year before eg the french

also: thus the ban on catholics in the masons comes from the vatican NOT the masons?

Knights of Columbus are more like the orange order.

Yeah, if you read the Encyclopaedia article on "Freemasonry" you'll see that numerous Popes have condemned it: partly for its unsectarian nature, partly for its secrecy, and partly, says the devil in me, cos it was trying to spread Enlightenment values.

There is dated documentary evidence for lodges in Edinburgh and St. Andrews that's older than the earliest evidence for the Kilwinning lodge. However, all of these first appear in the same year (1599), and there's probably no firm evidence as to which was actually founded first.

(said info from a *terrible* book called The Hiram Key which claims that Masonry is descended from the Knights Templar, and ultimately from ancient Egyptian royal rituals)

Kate would no doubt point out that many people claim Rosslyn Chapel was a Masonic lodge long before 1599.

You bastards!!!

::shakes fists::

Aberdonians who chose to support Celtic or Rangers are most likely to be pick the one that is doing well when they make the choice (ie usually as young kids). Unless their parents come from outside the North East (ie most probably Central Belt) religion is very unlikely to be a factor. There are many protestants who support Celtic because Celtic hit a purple patch at the right time. This seems to me exactly analagous to what Ailsa is saying about Inverness. Billy McNeill, who managed Aberdeen for one season before going back to Glasgow (where he had acute awareness of the problems of being a Protestant captain of Celtic) said that the lack of sectarianism in the North East was the thing that most tempted him to turn down the Celtic job - he would have liked to raise his kids somewhere where sectarianism wasn't an issue.

I don't find fans singing any songs that offensive, incidentally. I've done it myself in the past. I don't believe it's got anything to do with religion or football or hatred in the vast majority of cases, it's just a songs you sing. Boys of the Old Brigade v Stand Up If You Hate Rangers. I bet a straw poll would show most people being ignorant of the politics behind what they are singing.

Decent football fans DO find it offensive. Many of your fellow celtic fans do hate those songs. Same with some Rangers fans. Thats why other clubs hate playing the old firm when they have to put up with a sizeable amount of morons singing said songs. Sadly other teams have its own morons as they then decide to sing songs back sinking to that level.
Singing sectarian songs of any kind is offensive and should never be tolerated. Police and stewards refuse to act most times so its up to the clubs and its fans itself to eradicate this behaviour.
And don't take what I am saying as an attack on you personally, Ailsa. At least you say it was in the past. We've probably all done things we regret when younger at the past.

And you're right about the abuse Neil Lennon gets. Much of it is bigoted and clubs should try to sort out the behaviour of its own fans just as much as the old firm.

But as I said earlier, football isn't the sole reason for sectarianism in Scotland.

I can't believe it's just a football thing. My brother is a big Man U and Celtic fan, and he lives in Glasgow. His girlfriend's family are all big Rangers supporters and season ticket holders. There's a lot of slagging between them, but it's no different to the rivalry any otherwise non-bigoted footie fans would have.

FWIW i knew 2 people who were in the orange lodge, wouldnt wear green, speak to catholics or anything. They despised rangers. Said football gave orangeism a bad name. They never described themselves as 'Protestants' either. One said he was an orangeman and the others calls himself a christian(he was an elder in his local kirk).
Most people in orange lodges do so as a community thing and happily live side by side with catholics. Probably have catholic relations. But I suppose you only hear about the really bad ones on each side of the community.
I don't think murders after old firm games are common at all. And you can bet it didn't involve the actual fans who were at the games. Whenever i have seen rangers or celtic play i can honestly say theyre fairly well behaved and usually quiet unless its an old firm game, thats when the songs come out. Just to wind the other fans up.