Man U - hiccup or serious long time decline?

Talking of decline, that question should of course read 'long term decline'. Anyway, new answers...

"Blue is The Colour, Football is The Game, We're all together...."

CHELSEA! CHELSEA! CHELSEA!

The 90s have ended this autumn, as definitively as the 80s ended and the 90s began when Liverpool were so obviously crap under Souness and ManYoo dominated (but didn't win) the last league championship before the inception of the Premiership, exactly 10 years ago.

Dr C - I give you the curse of predicting that Chelsea will win the Worthington Cup (after all you're a London club at home to Newcastle in the quarter-final, which may as well be a straight pass to the last four) and, perhaps, finish in the top 3. Two superb victories in the North in three days: wasn't Vialli always being criticised for creating a team too fancy-dan to achieve such a thing?

a long, slow , painful decline into the pits of hell, where they belong, hopefully.

i'm not sure that this is decline proper. wasn't it very recently that there was also talk of an Arsenal decline. a few wins and things look different. of course it would be 'good for the game' if they declined. we shall see.

i like your '90s ended this autumn' theory Robin, although i'm not quite sure why. is this football related, or general. if general sometimes i like to think of their being 2 1990s (88-95, 95-01) that are somehow different yet linked.

Gareth - your 'two 'nineties' theory sounds very interesting. Tell me more?

Hey Robin, why do you say that Manchester United dominated that last football league season? It certainly didn't feel that way from where I was watching (admittedly that was in Leeds...) MUFC didn't turn into a dominant force until a couple of years later, in my personal history of footer.

While you're there, I could do with you tipping Plymouth for promotion, please.

Tim you would have hated Soccer AM on Saturday, Plymouth had fans of the week. Mind you they were referred to constantly as the best team in Cornwall.

Obviously someone was forgetting the mighty Falmouth Town.

I am highly worried about the analogies between ManUni trajectory's and my own...A Chelsea fan congratulating himself about his lucky weekend is not what you want to leave the ivory tower of spinsterdom.

I'm reminded of a Granada TV discussion show from late '81/early '82 - called something like "End of an Era". Tony Wilson may well have been the host. The programme's topic was the decline of Liverpool FC. Their nadir that season was a 3-1 Boxing Day home defeat by Man City in which new keeper Bruce Grobbelaar was at fault for two of the visitors' goals; Bob Paisley was coming to the end of his time at Anfield too (well, another season and a half), if you want another similarity. In early January, LFC were mid-table. By May they were champions (first of a hat-trick of titles).

Now, we can all laugh at this display of hubris by Mancunian TV execs, but at least they had something to go on (LFC had finished 5th the previous season). Perhaps a Red with a better memory than me can recall just what it was that Paisley did to revive his team's fortunes, but I bet it wasn't much. United seem to me to still have the best squad in British football by some distance and, sooner or later, they'll start playing like the best again.

They may not win the title this season, but I fancy their chances in Europe.

Robin: does that mean the 80s started in 1973?

Laurent Blanc is probably the worst signing of the season. Man Utd have no really great defenders. It's so great to see them losing. It could be like when Liverpool declined after the Barnes/Beardsley/Rush/Hansen/Dalglish era.

as an nufc supporter[not a fan - their style of play is boring and i get misty-eyed over memories of asprilla/ginola etc] i know nowt about football.

I knew we'd get the argies in the wc

OK, Tim, Leeds and ManYoo between them. The most important thing about that season, though, was that Liverpool were so utterly crap throughout and only scraped into Europe through the FA Cup (never having been in the lead in four hours of semi-final against Pompey: also, Souness's interview with The Sun on the 3rd anniversary of Hillsborough). Leeds United 1975-76, Liverpool 1991-92: *that* is the model for the kind of season MUFC might possibly be having. Of course Mike J sets out the alternative model: Liverpool 1981-82.

I've always been the kiss of death as far as football predictions go (remember tipping Exeter to finish bottom in 1997-98!) so here goes: Plymouth will win the Third Division by six points and knock Leicester or Southampton or another "vulnerable" Premiership side out of the FA Cup. That alright?

Gareth: the end-of-nineties thing was in football terms, not anything else.

Heheheh if only they sign Van Gaal as successor of Fergie it will be all over for Man U, Beckham will be playing in Spain with 4 months, the press will have a lovely time though.

Man U. in Europe? Don't fancy them. I see at least Real, Barça, Deportivo, Juve, AS Roma, even Bayern as teams who will eat them alive. He shouldn't have sold Stam I guess.

Gareth's two 90s theory looks quite right, I think I'm going to nick it. It works better than the 80s start in 82 the 90s start in 92 model.

Thanks, Robin... Sturrock will most likely be running to the hills right now (or perhaps the Scotland job... heh). Your comprehensive scuppering of the Gasheads this season is already much appreciated.

Robin: there are only two reasons why I favour my 81-82 model - [i] it fits more neatly with the hugely-successful-manager-nearing-end-of- reign scenario of MUFC today than the great-club-in-limbo-after- departure-of-legend (Revie, Dalglish) situation of the seasons you mention and [ii] it proffers a third threat to LFC's title chances this season, along with Leeds and Arsenal.

Yes, 91-92 was mildly amusing, but, unfortunately, they did win something and have some minor success in Europe (the comeback vs Auxerre). 92-93 was the real deal: hovering above the relegation pack deep into the new year, dumped out of the Cup Winners' early- doors by Spartak Moscow, eliminated by Bolton at the first hurdle of their Cup defence, even beaten by Palace in the Mickey Mouse Cup. I pine for those days almost as much as I do for 86-87...

Mike, you're getting bitter now! Shall I mention Evertons flirtation with relegation that seemed to last the second half of the nineties? ;-)

"Mike, you're getting bitter now!"

I was born bitter, sunshine.

"Shall I mention Evertons flirtation with relegation that seemed to last the second half of the nineties? ;-)"

You can if you like... but only if I get to discuss derby results in that period.

mutter mutter grumble grumble.... humph

By the way, lovely entrance by Gascoigne on Sunday, he certainly turned an incredibly dull game into a half decent one.

I missed Sunday's game... I was having tea and cake with some lovely people in W2.

Euro predictions for this week, anybody?

Man Utd 1-0 Boavista Arsenal 0-2 Juventus (please god) Inter Milan 1-1 Ipswich Celtic 2-0 Valencia

>Your comprehensive scuppering of the Gasheads this season is already much appreciated.

Is this wizardspeak?

Real Madrid were doing much worse than Man Utd until recently, they're now one point off the top or something like that.

I recently read a book featuring football articles written during the last World Cup finals. The author, a distinguished novelist whose name escapes me, was of the opinion that there was no way France would win because the goalie wore short sleeves and sported a goatee beard, which meant he was dastardly. He was wrong on that occasion, but it's an idea. Doesn't that Veron geezer have a funny beard too?

Barcelona 1 - Galatassaray 7

World Cup 2002 will be the tournament for long haired people to shine.

I can't remember who the Gasheads are. Bristol Rovers, is it?

Inter Milan 2 Ipswich 0. Then they'll *have* to concentrate on, gulp, Staying Up ...

In a way, Steady M's prediction of possible Man Utd turnaround (ie: they're still good) is more admirably even-handed than he lets on. Though he might want a third challenger to LFC, he has in fact been predicting Utd's decline to me for years, and his gleefully baleful predictions (which always involved some kind of McEnroe parallel, I seem to remember) looked rather like the way things are now.

"some kind of McEnroe parallel"

I'd completely forgotten about this; did I compare United's 'opting out' of the 2000 FA Cup with McEnroe's 1986 sabbatical? It was a bit weak if I did.

Bergkamp's role in Arsenal's third tonight - amazing.

Mike is OTM about Bergkamp - wow. I also agree with him about giving Man U time to get back in the saddle; there is no reason for the hordes of Reds to jump ship yet.

Jonnie, no predictions for the Gers? I'm hoping for a 1-1, but that would rely on finding someone who can score a goal.

Flo normally does ok away from home in Europe and I think the blue noses will have another round to look forward to - I concur with a 1- 1 scoreline.

Robin, yes, Bristol Rovers, your early-season tips for Div. 3 glory (please note I'm not sneering, my tipping tends to be terrible).

The thing with Ljungberg's marvellous second goal last night was that the initial ball Freddie himself played to DB was *terrible*, it took all the momentum out of a promising move. And how did Dennis repay Freddie? With a glorious piece of trickery and a defence-wrecking pass. How can that be fair?

3-1-to the Ars -e-nal, 3-1 to the Ars-e-nal! The best part about that game were the exhilarating twenty/thirty-yard volleys (Parlour, Heny) that Arsenal were raining down on the Juve goal, seemingly at will. If those had gone in, they would have been goal-of-the-season territory and no mistake. Bergkamp = awesome.

Bit quiet today, Jonnie? What's up? ;-)

You're expecting things to be fair now, Tim?! I'm still, morosely, of the opinion that Man U are going to win the championship: let's reconvene in early January after the Christmas football frenzy and then this can be discussed sensibly.

Humph.

I think I tipped Bristol Rovers because they'd never played at such a low level before and they looked to have more ambition and talent about them than the rest of the Third Division. The way things are going their derby matches next season will be against Yeovil Town and Forest Green Rovers in the Conference ...

ManYoo's sixth league defeat this season, as many as the whole of 2000-01. Their third in succession and their second home defeat in successive Saturdays. Ninth in the table. 11 points behind Liverpool, who have a game in hand.

"It's over, it's over now, it's over, it's over now, it's over, the game's shut down, sorry!"

*unusually bold prediction for me*

Liverpool's first title in 12 years awaits them. I can smell it.

haha true.

"Liverpool's first title in 12 years awaits them. I can smell it. "

So can I. It stinks.

Bitter Blue.

I'm surprised Trevor hasn't been on this thread talking about little Jermaine's wonder goal. Isn't it just terrible that all the papers could talk about yesterday was how Manyoo were losing everything and all, while ghhardly mentioning the fact that they have been beaten by teams out-playing them, hence hardly any mention of West Ham's performance on Saturday.

COOOOOMMMMMEEEEE OOOOOONNNNNNN YYYYYYOOOOOOOUUUUUU IIIIIIRRRRROOOONS!

Never let it be said that I'm one to miss a cue. It wasn't so much Defoe's goal that caught my eye (although what a mercurial talent he is!) but the build up that led to it.

Defoe's final header was the end product of an unbroken West Ham attack of about ten passes. It's one of the best build-up goals I've seen all season and a sure fire contender for goal of the month.

Yes, I think that far too much media attention has been focussed on this being the end of an era for Man Utd, not to mention oversights in Ferguson's tactics, and not enough on West Ham's solid display away from home, a rarity in itself. Let us not forget that Man Utd's team were still chock full of multi-million pound world class players. And they were outclassed, pure and simple.

And I think James has made a very compelling case for the England goalkeeper's jersey, although his resurgence may have arrived a little too late.

ethan to thread!!

And I must confess to shedding a nostalgic tear yesterday at the sight of Julian Dicks leading lowly Canvey Island to a place in the third round of the FA Cup for the first time in their history.

I never thought I'd see the man play football again. Doctors told him that he could be crippled for life should he continue to play, which is testament to his passion for the game. Saying that, I hope he calls it quits after this cup run!

Obviously life as a professional golfer was never going to be quite active enough for young Julian. Didn't he have a mare on his first ever round? Losing about 5 balls and only just breaking the ton?

Canvey did very well yesterday from what I saw, but Trevor, Macclesfield in the next round? with your history of good form against lower league teams? are you nervous?

Canvey vs. Northamption half-time punditry was one of the comedy highlights of the year. Ex-football aristocrats Hansen and Lawrensen appalled at how BBC football coverage has sunk so low; their criticisms of lowly Canvey alive and livid with subtext. Loyal BBC minion Stubbsy stoutly defending the 'Romance of the Cup' (for 'Romance' read 'only reason anybody could show such shambolic football on prime-time slot' ). Only time gentle Stubbsy meek and mild has EVER turned on arch-tormentor Lawro with such venom. The football was comedy as well.

Best line - Lawro: 'I fancy Northampton second half. Well, they're downhill, aren't they?'

But, all told, well done Canvey.

I am absolutely bricking it! The only way the Hammers can be guaranteed of putting in a good performance is against top flight opposition.

On paper, Canvey Island have a better chance of getting to the fourth round than we do. They beat Northampton Town 1-0 yesterday, whereas Northampton Town beat us 2-0 a couple of seasons ago in the same competition. Macca Town have little to fear from us. Away from home, fortress Upton Park is more like a bouncy castle.

klassik Hanson - ^on potato skinz^ - cue bemused Lineker

BBC always had the rights to show live games from the opening rounds c.1988-1996, but of course they had enough football then that they didn't need to. Note also hoardings encouraging Canveyites to contact *evil* far-right local Tory MP (another from the Tebbit / IDS / Rosindell / Amess mould of Fatcha's Essex, I'm afraid).

Crystal Palace = Newcastle away, I'm pessimistic. Second team Gillingham = Wolves away, conceivable given their surprisingly dodgy home record (considering their league placing).

Wimbledon got Boro, who they beat in both FA and Worthy cups last season. Not the worst draw imaginable, but I suspect it'll be third time lucky for the North East's 1st= most erratic team.

If you're all going to Dagenham, clap your hands.

Oh, OK then.

Come on you Daggers!

Sigh - I remember the match reports in the Ilford Recorder...

A very easy prediction for all to remember, should they wish, when trophy time comes:

Liverpool will not win the title in 2002.

Fave Daggers memory - Anxious Commentator: "Could the fifty or so children standing on the clubhouse please got down because we're not insured for people falling through roofs."

Not a single one got down.

Pinefox, it's really easy to say who won't win the premiership in 2002 (my tip is that Leicester won't win) but who will win?

LIVERPOOL.

Or maybe Arsenal. Or possibly Leeds. But Reynard is NOT on the money here.

i would think Leeds fans would be expecting something now, after the extraordinary outled dolearys dished out

outled? what? that was meant to say outlay

Will is OTM above. I watched the Wrexham v Hereford game a fortnight ago and the MOTD 'highlights' of FAC rd. 2 at the weekend. It's shocking how utterly inept some of the players are in the lower divs.

It's between Arsenal and Leeds. Hard to pick a winner.

Liverpool won't come higher than 2nd, possibly lower. United could surge and leave Liverpool in 4th. Chelsea will finish 5th, Villa or Newcastle 6th; Tottenham will strive for 7th place. Everton will struggle to make it that high but are probably top-half (9th-10th).

Dropsy: Ipswich, Derby, Leicester or Soton. (OK, that was easy.)

Most lower division players are either skilled players who, for whatever reason, can't play well consistently, or players who are good at one thing but don't have a 'complete' game (e.g. can run very fast to latch on to the ball but are not very good at delivering crosses). A few (but very few, I think) seem so startlingly free from any kind of footballing talent that it's hard to understand how they earn a living from playing the game.

Watching Exeter on the TV the other day, I would have come to the same conclusion as Dr. C (utterly inept), if I didn't know that, for a lot of this season, many of them have played much better. If they didn't have off days, they wouldn't be 3rd division footballers, I suppose.

Tim is right, anyone who watches lower league football will occasionally see ridiculous pieces of skill (see my answer to the best goal ever thread) but they are like a needle in a haystack.

I still don't think Leeds will win the title though (sorry Tim) and I think that Southampton will stay up.

And Pinefox, I'll be at White Hart lane tonight to run the rule over your lillywhites, and munch on a bagel or three!

My money's on Arsenal. Still unbeaten away from home, which at this stage in the season is ohmyword quite extraordinary. David James needs to be world class on Saturday for us to steal a point from them.

Leeds or Liverpool. Arsenal don't quite have the squad to win it, and will struggle if they pick up injuries/suspensions. Leeds have arguably gone thru their injury patch already, and can only get stronger with Fowler. Plus Radebe to come back?

Arsenal 3rd. Man U 4th. Chelsea 5th

Going Down! Ipswich and Leicester with an outsider who will have a bad run starting at Christmas. I reckon one from Bolton, West Ham, Boro and Everton. If I had to put money on it I'd say Everton. Boro are dire, but have Southgate and Ugo, so should be frugal at the back.

Everton for the drop? No, no - it's not gonna happen. They were much closer to the trapdoor in c.97 / 98, I think. Their leanest years are surely behind them. (Like Gazza in this respect.)

just make Bolton go through the trapdoor, terrible team, terrible fans, they're no premiership team. ugh.

I find the Pinefox's confidence in EFC's mid-tableness and a 12th season of title drought for LFC quite touching.

EFC are well on the way to racking up the same kind of long-term injury list as we had last season; if there's any substantial deviation from our steady win-draw-loss pattern of the moment, it'll be a negative one.

I'm waiting (hopefully, expectantly) for the Grand Anfield Wobble, but I fear it happened in August and we all missed it. Tomorrow night's game-in-hand is crucial - enough daylight between them and their challengers pre-Xmas and they could possibly still afford the traditional Month of Madness in the new year and take the championship anyway. It's an awful, awful prospect. I thought Boris Becker's return to competitive tennis was bad enough...

I find Mike and the Pinefox's unshakeable faith in the ANFIELD FALSE DAWN quite... poignant.

Poignant? Is that wee Edna under the stairs?

Actually I DO believe that it's a False Dawn, IF that means that, despite their other (tremendous) achievements, they WON'T win the title. To be fair, one could argue that having won the UEFA Cup already stops it being a FD, even if they never win anything again.

I am quite confident about this. Unlike Steady Mike, I like the current Liverpool side a lot, partly because I have various fond memories of watching them on Booze TV with Edna on their way to this point... but they're just not *strong* enough. They won't compete hard enough when they come against the top 2 (as named earlier), and they don't seem to have the same firepower either. (Selling Fowler to main title contenders was hardly an inspired move either - shades of Cantona?)

well, there's been a draw against Leeds so far and as for Arsenal, that happens on the 23rd, without Viera. The Gooner season ticket holder here at work has already told me that he is dubious as to their chances, so.......

I really don't want to say that Liverpool will win it as I don't want to jinx it, but you know, it may just happen.

And no, Everton won't go down while Gascoine is still capable of coming on at half time and changing the course of games.

Liverpool not STRONG enough, Pinefox? OK they're equal in some areas (Henry = Owen, Viera = Gerrard ,Campbell= Hyppia), but look at the rest. In midfield I'd rather choose from Hamman/Murphy to win the ball alongside Gerrard and have Smicer/Berger/Barmby/Gary Mac in hand for creativity, as opposed to Parlour (can run, but lacks skill), Van Bronkhorst (useless), Pires (the jury's out) and Grimandi (ha, ha, ha). Alright, Freddie Lungberg (sp?) looks very good.

Of course it depends on injuries and stuff, but all things being equal Liverpool's squad is better. Only possible glitch is if Owen gets crocked. Heskey and Litmanen doesn't look good.

I think it's Liverpool if Owen stays fit: despite everyone's mid-90s based theories, they look the least flakey team out there. And, as Dr C says, they've got endless midfield options. Arsenal, I reckon, are more likely to have a funny turn. Could be Leeds, of course, and I'm still tempted to put a tenner on Man U if the odds getting that little bit longer.

Any hope that Leeds have will depend on how the court case goes. Result any day now. If Bowyer et al go down they haven't a hope. I wouldn't rule out Arsenal but it looks like Liverpool all the way now

Tim H will be pleased at this (!): I reckon Dagenham and Redbridge will get past Exeter in the replay, no problem.

I'm still with Liverpool, but the more I think about it, the more that Arsenal comeback against Villa looks like the kind of thing championship sides come out with. It all comes down to Dec 23 at Anfield. This is the most URGENT and KEY game of the season, no question.

Other prediction: Southampton will look back on their flukey 4-0 at Leicester as this year's Game That Kept Them Up.

Were Tottenham actually any good in the 6-0 against Bolton or were that "terrible team, terrible fans" just rolling over to stop themselves being distracted if they go through a slump?

Robin, Bolton's performance last night can only be described as abject, they were very poor indeed. At the same time in the first half Spurs took full advantage of it, in fact they should have had far more goals but seemed intent on walking the ball into the net after intricate 20 pass moves.

The strange thing was, they came out after half time and were really not very good at all, as if all the life had been sucked out of them or they didn't want to embarass Bolton, who were indeed understrength, but still featured a a smattering of premiership regulars and members of the team that took them up last season.

The fifth goal was a peach though, a little passage of play on the wing featuring lovely flicks and tricks followed by a pass down the wing for Rebrov who centred towards Iversen, unfortunately for him Barness got there first and placed a lovely shot into the back of the net.

Spurs' defence looked good apart from Perry who has little or no first touch and panics esily, King and Gardner however looked assured, and were playing some lovely passes from the back, teddy was imperious, but slow. Les Ferdinand was indeed on fire as was Anderton, which apparently makes a change. Sullivan made one or two easyish saves, nothing more.

I can't comment on the Bolton fans as there were only about 50 off them tucked in the corner, but I'm sure they were scumbags.

Saw highlights - which you're free to dismiss as unreliable and unrepresentative. From that basis (and no other) I have got to thinking that this could be, if nothing more, the best-passing Tottenham side since Hoddle was actually in the team. Anderton looked very unusually good; and Cabbage is right, the buildup to the og was astounding, and deserved a goal one way or another.

None of this necessarily offers an augury for anything beyond this particular game; let alone any chance of Tottenham winning anything. But as the pundits like to say, you can only beat what's put in front of you.

Pinefox, you are OTM. This Spurs team plays good football and, ok, we're not going to challenge for the league this or maybe even next year but shaping a team into playing good football bodes well for the long term.The players that Hoddle has brought in have helped, especially Gus and Teddy, and it is the impact they will have on the younger players that is so promising. If we could win the Worthington Cup this year (and yes of course I would prefer to get into Europe via the league or FA Cup) that would surely provide a better platform for continued (relative) success than the last league cup victory.

So - could United yet get back on the rails?

What do you mean Pinefox? Despite being beaten yet again (sigh) in bliddy London last night United are now fourth and a place in Europe looks a poss. Or did you mean Leeds who are third?

We need Nitsuh to sort this one out.

I write as one who likes Newcastle United, but dislikes Leeds United. I'm sorry to say that I don't think the former will finish as high as fourth. I'm sorry to say that I think that the latter will be top two. (I have said this before.)

I also think that Manchester United might get as high as fourth. Or better. It looks like no-one wants to stick their necks out on this.

But (Scouse) Reds should note my prediction of their missing the title in 2002, observe the two points dropped last night, and start thinking.

The only people who have a valid claim to being annoyed at Man Utd being called United by everyone are Dundee Utd fans. It's not like there are other big Leeds and Newcastle teams to confuse things.

What are British po-leece like?

Irish ones are kind of iffy in my experience. harassing people for no reason and being extremely physical at crowd management type stuff. maybe its the same everywhere.

oops wrong thread.

while i'm here I still think Liverpool are on course and it was inevitable that when United actually eventually won a game everyone would go "oooooh hang on a second, maybe they arent the complete cabbages they've played like most of the season".

That belongs on Cops thread, right?

Anyway, Ronan - can Utd get back on the rails?

Oh, I see - the answer's No?

To be honest I don't see why they shouldnt squad wise. As I've said before supporting Liverpool is like being one of those old actress groupie women believing in love. just when you start to think theres a chance it completely fucks up again leaving you afraid to hope. but for United to come back Liverpool, and Leeds etc must fuck up royally. That's not totally unlikely I guess.

Liverpool are undoubtedly going to lose it for a spell, some time. They'll do OK, yes - but where the idea came from that they were now on an endless run of success, I don't know.

No Liverpool fans have backed their title chances here since last night's result.

Did I not come across as backing them?

If not put me down, I back them still ahead of any other team. It's as a fan I worry because I have personal loyalties to put on the line.

Draw with Fulham may be an iffy result, but it's not a loss and Liverpool are still top. Fulham have drawn with other top teams also. Lets hope Liverpool keep to the habit of the last few seasons and have a good christmas campaign.

ManYoo's 5-0 last night was, from the highlights I saw, virtually an exhibition match against a pathetic, extraordinarily ordinary, mediocre side who are heading nowhere but down.

Fulham are a good side. Liverpool are going through a nervy patch, certainly. I think MUFC will be top 4, but I'm still going with Liverpool for the title, for the moment. Still say it comes down to Liverpool-Arsenal on 23 Dec. Ask me then.

I watched the Liverpool - Fulham game in my day off yesterday, they did everything but score, Owen had a bit of an off night. Litmanen must have a spell starting soon, his passing is absolutely sublime, it's just a shame that only Owen has the ability to read it! They can still win it.... touch wood.

Chris we will gladly take Litmanen back. You're wasting a brilliant player, but yeah I reckon his passing is a bit too subtle for LFC's brand of let's-give-Owen-the-ball-see-if-we-can-get-ahead-lay-back- and-counter-our-way-to-a-result brand of "football". ;)

Has this thread attained official talk-about-the-English-football- season-as-it-progresses-HERE status yet? Or should we start a separate one?

As comical as yesterday was, I'd much rather LFC had four 1-0 defeats than the battering they took at Stamford Bridge. Its effect is also somewhat diluted by the points dropped by Arsenal and Leeds (two up at home to bleedin' Leicester with 12 mins left - I ask you). It's a blip, not the start of a slump.

Anyway, *everyone* gets a thumping off Chelsea once in a while. It just never seems to have the wider impact folks imagine at the time.

I'll continue to talk about it as long as the Blues continue to thrash all and sundry.

Which means I'll be going quiet in Jan. as the wheels fall off over Christmas! ;)

But for now - YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Poor old Jerzy, makes two good saves and they both fall at the feet of oncoming striker! Ah well, Chelsea did look good yesterday, but they've got Bolton next and let's see how they perform then, will they have the same drive?

Omar, sorry but you can't have Litmanen, he's far too special, mind you having only Heskey to look for yesterday hampered him severely, he needs to link up with a striker with some guile, not just brute force. For Christmas I want Liverpool to sign Kluivert.

Chris, supposedly that could be arranged. Rumour around 'la fogata' is that Barça are way over there head into debts and have to sell one of their big name players, that means either Rivaldo or Kluivert. There was a rumour of a Davids + cash = Rivaldo swap, but I can't see it happen.

For christmas I want Real to sign Nesta. :) Sadly I probably will have to wait till summer.

I'd heard similar rumours myself, he would be ideal as well, but then he'd be ideal for any team.

Ah, come on now, he's hardly Ledley king is he.

in terms of strikers Jonnie that's a good thing, and yes I do know that he has scored the fastest ever goal in the premiership.

I was comparing him to Nesta you imp.

don't call me that. Will King reach the heights of Nesta though eh? I don't think so, but he is useful.