can we still be friends?

No, wait! I lie. One ex boyfriend is still my friend. He married one of my closest friends, so I didn't really have a choice if I wanted to still keep the friend. It was VERY bad and very awkward and difficult for a long, long time, but now he's my friend again, but in that "husband of a buddy" sort of way. And that's good.

But generally, no. No chance in hell.

I've been really badly hurt and really badly burned even trying. One of two scenarios invariably develops: 1) I still carry a torch, and allow myself to be used and manipulated, until the jealousy issue gets too much and it implodes 2) the other person still carries a torch, and ends up sabotaguing things and making them awkward and difficult.

And even after the torches have burned out, it's just too weird and complicated and awful. I carry grudges for a long, long time.

I never used to think about this before getting involved with people, but perhaps I really *should*. I guess I have been lately. But more in a "I've been so badly hurt I'm gunshy" way rather than an "I don't want to mess up our friendship" way. Generally, if I'm so into someone that I actually *want* to sleep with them, I'm to the point in passion where I don't *care* if I mess up the friendship.

What an interesting question.

I suspect how long the couple were a couple is a big part of it.

But I've known it to work out OK. Rarely. But it happens.

Uuuuuuhhhhhh... ::bites tongue intensely::

You don't know what is going on or has gone on in a relationship unless you have been in that relationship yourself. Don't make assumptions about what is selfishness and what is self preservation, in the face of abuse, manipulation and deliberate lies.

There is a lot I could say on this subject, but I will keep my mouth closed... just so I don't make anyone... UNCOMFORTABLE or anything.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to speculate on this, cause I don't know anyone this has happened to (ie that the same though - I love you but I don't want an intense sexual pair-bonded relationship with you anymore - has occurred to both halves at the same time; I doubt the thought expressed that particular way has ever occurred to anyone). But that might be cause I'm only just old enough to know enough people who've been in sufficiently long relationships.

But in a sense your answer illustrates what I'm talking about. If a couple has a lot of mutual friends and then breaks up, and can't bear to see one another, then for the mutual friends side-taking occurs, i.e. the act of not-bearing-to-see FORCES the friends to make a judgement on what happened in the relationship.

A break-up in a close circle is always about more than two people, and it *is* selfish (I am NOT saying that you or anyone you might have broken up with do this) to expect friends to act exactly how you would want them to act, i.e. judge without presuming understanding.

This is more an argument about not going out with existing friends than it is one about how to conduct your break-up.

I haven't really had to deal with this myself, most of my parents' friends are divorced and they have managed to stay in touch and stay friends with all parties. I think it's more an issue for the couple than their friends to be honest.

isn't this characterization of things quite lacking in empathy? particularly since not all 'sabotage' is overt (especially in the minds of the saboteurs)?

i am struggling through this exact same question right now, and the answer for me is yes but it's somewhat hard, and usually requires a period of emotional (and sometimes physical) distance just to sort out the head.

things are awkward especially when an ex makes a passing reference to another woman and you want to ask 'so, what's the deal?' like you would with a pal—even though i am very happy in my current situation, i feel like asking anything about anyone new makes me sound jealous, particularly if my voice cracks from awkwardness while i'm doing it.

Emotional relationships are very complex. The the emotions of breakups are even more complex. It's as not fair for a social circle to exert pressure on the estranged couple as it is for the estranged couple to exert pressure on the social circle.

It may affect a range of people, but ultimately, the relationship *is* just about the two people in it. If other people start becoming such a concern, as far as I'm concerned, the relationship is doomed anyway.

I've never had a relationship that just "drifted apart" so I can't speak for those sorts of circumstances. Given my personality, I don't see it happening.

You can't deny the past happened, but you can continue on with life and enjoy friendships, and I do, or so I like to think. :-) But that's my experience only.

That goal is a far cry from where I am now: this semester I have a class with my ex-girlfriend and ex-female best friend (who were not ex anythings at the beginning of the year). It's very hard to steadily ignore them, and I feel stupid doing so, but it's just easier for me to just say nothing than to risk getting involved emotionally again.

fuck relationships and that messy shit.

like a sales force into the night