masculinity and lists

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I think there's something intrinsically masculine about making lists about music and films and all that and surely there's been some clever thoerist or writer who's said this in a clever and posh way who I can use in an essay...

― secondhandnews, Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

"100 Ways To Please Your Man" to thread.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

it's a brain thing.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

allo there loverly

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

our two year old is obsessed with cars. and trucks. names, makes, models, numbers. he can spot a lincoln or a saab or a subaru from a 100 paces. he obsessively stares at car magazines until he knows the name of every car in an issue of car & driver. we bought him musical instruments, stuffed animals, all kinds of toys since he was a baby. he wants to play with cars and trucks and anything with wheels. i hate cars. maria doesn't care much one way or another. we gave him a doll once. he tore its head off. luckily, he loves books a lot too. especially ones with cars and trucks in them. we have not "taught" him to love cars and everything about cars. if you know of any 2 year old girl that gets that excited about cars and trucks let me know.when he learns to write, i wouldn't doubt that a long list of car models would be first on his agenda.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Apparently the androgynous approach is a list that explains all your entries. Thus am I a hermaphrodite.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

I guess this relates to the general tendency of men being more obsessive about things (movies, music, action figures, etc.) than women. How many female movie/music/comic geeks do you know (well, okay, I know several, but the guys still beat them both in numbers and in the intensity of their obsession)? This is just a guess, but I think it has to do with the wider issue of how girls and boys and socialized. Boys are encouraged more to become "specialists" in some particular areas (be they mathematics or movies) because they're supposed to become the breadwinners, and specializing is good for that. Whereas girls are socialized to take a more wholesome look on things, because they're supposed to become mothers/wives who need to take care of the whole household, not just focus on some special field of interest.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 13 March 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

yesterday, rufus pointed at the wall and said: "That's made of wood."

me: "right, and where does wood come from?"

rufus: "logs"

me: "right, but where do logs come from?"

rufus: "log trucks"

me: "right, but where do they get the logs for the log trucks?"

rufus: "the sawmill"

me: "right, but where does the sawmill get the logs from"

rufus: "log trucks"

he wasn't really interested in the whole "tree" part of the equation.

hey, i shared an amusing toddler anecdote! do i win a prize?

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:03 (twenty years ago)

xpost

Well my kinda reasoning is that in the case of music it is the masculine desire to list the ten best songs ever is to rationalise the emotional (and therefore feminine)...

― secondhandnews, Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:05 (twenty years ago)

"but I think it has to do with the wider issue of how girls and boys and socialized"

see, that was my whole point. rufus is TWO. a lot of kids his age can barely talk. he did not get this from us or society. i'd just as soon play with dolls, actually. not that i don't enjoy a nice hotwheels car, i do. and the consuming nature in the way that he must name every car that he sees in a parking lot. he doesn't do this with buildings and trees and rocks. he's collecting and collating and i think this is a male brain phenomena. for the most part.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:07 (twenty years ago)

but yeah, i mean, society definitely reinforces the differences between boys and girls. that's a given. but i think those differences are in the brain originally.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:12 (twenty years ago)

Your kid could just as well be an exception, but I'd say in general it has more to with socialization than "male brain phenomena". Male and female brain are almost similar, so biological differences don't really account for these things. Small kids do get a lot from their surroundings (i.e. "society"), even if the parents try to teach them otherwise. I've heard several stories of parents trying to raise their children without teaching any gender stereotypes, and yet the boys want to play with cars and the girls with Barbies. I don't think that comes from the brain...

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

"I've heard several stories of parents trying to raise their children without teaching any gender stereotypes, and yet the boys want to play with cars and the girls with Barbies."

see, now why wouldn't this prove anything to you? and rufus caught the car bug befrore he had ever seen television or played with another child or seen any other children playing with anything!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

when he was one we went to a house sale. he was just starting to walk on his own. in one room was a pile of dolls on one side and a pile of trucks on the other. he RAN to the trucks as soon as we entered the room. we tried to interest him in some dolls and it was like we weren't even there. we got one for him anyway. that's the one he dismantled and then ignored. but he ignores almost anything without wheels.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

My experience with people who claim to be socializing their kids totally neutrally is that they're not at all. There are unconscious habits. If you're heterosexual enough to even procreate then you're likely to have "masculine" or "feminine" behaviors already that will be picked up by the kid. That's why it's such a vicious circle because the truly gender neutral aren't systematically procreating. Ha ha ha.

― kansas topography (kansas topography), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:10 (twenty years ago)

"100 Ways To Please Your Man" to thread.

surely those were written BY men?

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

i think rufus just wants to be like his mom. she's the one who drove the truck for the first two years of his life. i only got my license a few months ago. i'm more girly than maria is. plus, she goes to work and i stay home with rufus and do all the cooking and cleaning, so we'll see what that does to/for him. probably not much.

oh and by the way, i didn't want to make it sound as if i thought women weren't just as "obsessive" about things as men. they are. i think it just manifests itself in different ways.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)

i dunno, i think a lot of it is socialization. when i was a kid i used to obsess over knowing what every plant and tree was on our property, and the types of rocks, their names, classifications etc., and the same with lots of animals. i stopped doing that kind of thing so much past the age of thirteen or so. just being a girl felt very distracting from all that, if that makes any sense. i felt almost pulled away from it.

― Kim (Kim), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

My listmaking goes back to childhood writing of Christmas and birthday lists. I'm always a bite taken aback by people who say they never did this, and they like to get surprises as presents. I guess it's all about control.

― jel -- (jel), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

it helps you make sense of the world. or at least tricks you into thinking that you are making sense of the world. which is a comfort.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

A friend of mine has a 2 year old daughter who is obsessed with trains. So there.

― caitlin (caitlin), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:01 (twenty years ago)

-- Tuomas (tuomas.alh...), March 13th, 2005.

"I've heard several stories of parents trying to raise their children without teaching any gender stereotypes, and yet the boys want to play with cars and the girls with Barbies."

see, now why wouldn't this prove anything to you? and rufus caught the car bug befrore he had ever seen television or played with another child or seen any other children playing with anything!

-- scott seward (skotro...), March 13th, 2005.

nature AND nature, fellas!

― latebloomer: damn cheapskate satanists (latebloomer), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

If you want to send flowers to people, frequently on a whim, does that mean you are masculine or feminine?

― youn, Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

well depends on whether you know what the names of the flowers are!

― latebloomer: damn cheapskate satanists (latebloomer), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

**If you're heterosexual enough to even procreate then you're likely to have "masculine" or "feminine" behaviors already that will be picked up by the kid.**

wtf? straights who don't procreate are only partially hetero? what about homosexuals who procreate, are they automatically destined to have gay kids? what about all the ultimately gay or "trans-gender" individuals raised by traditionally "masculine" or "feminine" parents? the logic here strikes me as reductive, and absurd.

― lovebug starski (lovebug starski), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:39 (twenty years ago)

what if you only know their scientific names?

― youn, Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

if you know of any 2 year old girl that gets that excited about cars and trucks let me know.

My mother. But she was obsessed with it as a child/teenager. Mainly as a way to show off to guys, she could outdo'em in that department. Hmm, maybe that's where I get it from, a desire to prove I'm not typically female? I still dislike lists as I don't see the point in loving something more than something else. They (songs/records) are all my babies, I love them equally.

"I've heard several stories of parents trying to raise their children without teaching any gender stereotypes, and yet the boys want to play with cars and the girls with Barbies."

There's such a thing as society. ;-) I mean, as much as you'd like to refrain from teaching gender stereotypes, society will have an impact. Also, do you read him bedtime stories? They contain stereotypes.

― nathalie barefoot in the head (stevie nixed), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

i'm totally obsessive and though i've stopped with list-making, i used to constantly do it as a kid. i don't see how it's masculine or feminine. maybe the things they list and obsess about is what differs.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Sunday, 13 March 2005 22:47 (twenty years ago)

"Your kid could just as well be an exception, but I'd say in general it has more to with socialization than 'male brain phenomena'. Male and female brain are almost similar, so biological differences don't really account for these things."

Why does it have to be one or the other? of course environment plays a MASSIVE role in brain development, but HOW the brain responds to environmental stimuli is probably dictated by an individual's genes. and the genetic gap between men and women is profound, certainly enough to rule out the idea that male and female brains are interchangeable. is it really so outlandish to assume that there are genetic tendencies largely inherent to each sex, ones that will to a certain extent pre-determine how a growing individual will respond to their environment?

― Cabaret Voltron (PUNXSUTAWNEY PENIS), Sunday, 13 March 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)

The brains of righthanded and lefthanded people are different. (I don't know if this is more or less than differences across sexes.) Gender is socially significant. It's like saying there are two kinds of people -- masculine or feminine -- or there are two kinds of people -- lefthanded and righthanded -- and you may be neither...

― youn, Sunday, 13 March 2005 22:57 (twenty years ago)

I'm the mom of aforesaid auto-freak. I was raised in a lesbian household; my brother was the only male. I have been very conscious my entire life of gender stereotypes. I wrote a 200-page-thesis on how societal politics in East vs. West Germany affected women of those countries and their literature. When we had a baby shower for Rufus and got gifts of little outfits with basketballs and trucks and footballs on them, I was slightly annoyed, because I knew I didn't want to encourage/reinforce gender stereotypes.

That's why it came as such a revelation that no matter what I intended for Rufus, he is his own person, with his own interests: trucks and cars.

It started with ceiling fans and wheels. Things that spin.

Scott and I are both enough of gender-benders to almost secretly hope he turns out gay or to be a dancer, but of course we're not going to discourage him when he asks "what kind of car is that?" and "what kind of Subaru? An Outback?"

As Scott mentioned, we don't mirror society's stereotypes. Scott stays at home and I go to work. The comment above about being heterosexual enough to procreate meaning you're already exhibiting masculine or feminine behaviors is bunk. Most people I know exhibit both masculine and feminine behaviors, regardless of their plumbing.

The danger of gender stereotypes is when they constrict people from being who they really want to be, or when people start thinking that all boys like trucks and all girls like dolls.

I still think that those of you who think we are just products of "society" will be surprised if you ever have your own kids.

Scott and I have another boy on the way. We're hoping that the next one will like to play with all the stuffed animals Rufus has but isn't interested in. I'm sure we'll find again that this new person will have his own distinct personality, from the get-go. What parents do can shape their kids to an extent, but kids are not blank slates.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Monday, 14 March 2005 00:13 (twenty years ago)

More influential than general socially-built biases, I often think that young children define themselves in relation to their parents. Those things which get A BIG RESPONSE quickly form into interests, often independent of the tone (happy, irritated, false-indifference) of the said parental response. This is especially true in my comprehension of first children. Second, third, fourth &ct, children tend IMHO to define themselves in a way that's - first and foremost - patently different from their older siblings.

― Remy (null) (x Jeremy), Monday, 14 March 2005 00:19 (twenty years ago)

Inevitably there are differnece between blokes and girls, whether they be deliberatly enforced or not, but I can't help but feel that charts and lists are "blokey"

I mean a couple of the women who have posted to this thread of mention christmas lists etc but I can't help but think thats completely different from a top ten albums of 2005 list...

― secondhandnews, Monday, 14 March 2005 01:37 (twenty years ago)

I'm female, and I was really into hot wheels and trains when I was a kid, much more than my brother, who liked GI Joe & Batman. I'm closer to my father than my brother was, so maybe I was picking up cues from him.

― Shatterproof Glass (dymaxia), Monday, 14 March 2005 01:43 (twenty years ago)

I will never understand how this "men like lists, women don't" shit works in a million billion years but considering the evidence I guess I'll have to concede that more men I know are into listmaking than the women I know. beyond that, you've got me.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 14 March 2005 02:10 (twenty years ago)

In my experience, women like making lists of tasks for other people, namely me.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 14 March 2005 02:56 (twenty years ago)

I'm a compulsive listmaker. Best albums, best songs, best bands, best tv shows, best movies... My computer is filled with word document after word document of lists. Sometimes I'll remake a list that I've already made before, for no reason. When I go on a long plane trip, I take a notebook and a pencil just so I can make lists to pass the time.

I also used to be able to identify any car. I can now identify almost any digital camera.

People always tell me this behavior is very boyish.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 14 March 2005 03:04 (twenty years ago)

I hate lists

― just adam (nordicskilla), Monday, 14 March 2005 03:16 (twenty years ago)

I wonder what Lawrence Summers would think.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 14 March 2005 03:26 (twenty years ago)

I don't think any of us are saying all men like to list and women dont just that its masculine trait as opposed to a feminine one.
or at least i think thats what we mean...

― secondhandnews, Monday, 14 March 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

I think I get annoyed with lists so much because I used to do it pathologically until my late teens. Maybe I see it as a childish thing that needs to be grown out of?

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 14 March 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

so you never watch the jimmy carr programmes on c4 in case the beatles dont win...

― secondhandnews, Tuesday, 15 March 2005 00:01 (twenty years ago)

i am very the much the list making type, but it takes all the courage i can muster to not actually make lists, so that i don't appear to be the list making type. one day i may find peace with this side of myself, but for now it seems most constructive to try to will myself into the sort of person who is not tempted to make lists. also this gives me the right (?) to make fun of people who make lists.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 00:19 (twenty years ago)

the fact that scott and maria's kid is into stuff they didn't expect doesn't by itself prove anything either way: he could be typical or an anomaly

if x% of boys by the time they're 15 are into cars, say, do we make a distinction between the ones who were into cars by their own (in-wired?) choice since they were 1, and the ones who picked it up from other boys age say 10: cz the first group might be pretty tiny compared to the second

ie you;d get a map of characteristcs as manifesting early one, which is then combed through a pretty tough social filter (parental expectation/pressure; TV; school blah blah), and is a completely difft map by age 12

where the first map happened still to agree w.the second map isn't necessarily an indicator of typicality; it might be an indiciator of extreme eccentricity

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 00:22 (twenty years ago)

thirteen years pass...

https://bestlifeonline.com/movie-quotes/
37 Movies Every Man Over 40 Should Be Able to Quote
SOME REFERENCES ARE ESSENTIAL COMMUNICATION FOR MEN.

By ERIC SPITZNAGEL

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:10 (six years ago)

And by the time we reach our 40s, certain movies have become part of our lexicon. If you don’t “speak” Fight Club or The Matrix or Big Lebowski, it’s like trying to get around Paris without even bothering to learn a few words in French. We understand each other because we’ve all seen the same movies and embraced the same life lessons. Gentlemen, if you’re in your 40s and you can’t effortlessly quote from any of these movies, it’s time for some Netflix homework.

― omar little, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:13 (six years ago)

Oh great, a whole website aimed at the "prick at the next table in the pub" demographic.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:14 (six years ago)

“Bring out the Gimp,” you say. But your friend tells you, “Gimp’s sleeping.” Do you care? “Well, I guess you’re gonna have to go wake him up now, won’t you?” This is an exchange that happens between adults, and when it’s finished, nothing else needs to be said. We all understand.

― omar little, Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:18 (six years ago)

It's funny how this list closely parallels with my list of "movies you should probably grow out of frequently quoting by the time you reach 30"

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:23 (six years ago)

http://www.underground-england.co.uk/news/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2-1-401x640.png

― Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:25 (six years ago)

Nothing fills me with disdain like people who are real into Fight Club

― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 2 October 2018 23:42 (six years ago)

That list is some pumpkin spice basic bitchness.

― Yerac, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 00:06 (six years ago)

Spitsnagl

― F# A# (∞), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 01:02 (six years ago)

i know i shouldn't let it bother me but i hate shit like this so much

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 01:05 (six years ago)

They make money off your hate unforch

― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 01:07 (six years ago)

Who the fuck quotes The Seven Samurai? Rest of list basic as fuck yeah.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 12:12 (six years ago)

My bro: “The dude abides”
Me: また生き残ったな

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 12:44 (six years ago)

pfff, no Withnail and I? Dude.

― fetter, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 12:49 (six years ago)

Wait, is Clickhole farming out listicles to other websites now?

― Mummenschanz in a Metal Mood (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 12:53 (six years ago)

i know i shouldn't let it bother me but i hate shit like this so much

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, October 3, 2018 3:05 AM (eleven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Seriously tho, this is crap. Saying 'Fight Club is like wine, you appreciate it more with age' is criminal.

― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 13:06 (six years ago)

specifying 'men over 40', when that's more normally the unspoken default for culturally acceptable bluffers' guide things like this, kind of seems like the most noteworthy element here

― still wackford after all these squeers (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 13:11 (six years ago)

Gentlemen, if you’re in your 40s and you can’t effortlessly quote from any of these movies, it’s time for some Netflix homework.

Eric Spitznagel, the author of this piece, is 49 years old. I like to imagine him laying all of these sweet quotes on his kids or maybe even his grandchildren!

― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 15:08 (six years ago)

Nothing fills me with disdain like people who are real into Fight Club

― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, October 2, 2018 7:42 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my least favorite movie of all time

― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 15:30 (six years ago)

https://filmquarterly.org/2018/09/21/times-up-for-the-male-canon/

― I Never Promised You A Hose Harden (Eric H.), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 15:43 (six years ago)

The quotable joy is never-ending.

― jmm, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 16:03 (six years ago)

Nothing fills me with disdain like people who are real into Fight Club

― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, October 2, 2018 7:42 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my least favorite movie of all time

― valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, October 3, 2018 4:30 PM (fifty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I agree with these views and would like to join some sort of club where we can discuss them

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 16:27 (six years ago)

the first rule of culture club is karma's a chameleon

― imago, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 16:34 (six years ago)

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