Estranged

new

no one owes any one anything

no, yes, neither.

and a damn fine song too!

If a person is abusive, if they continue to cause hurt and pain and destroy your self esteem or your life, it doesn't matter if that person is a blood tie or a complete stranger.

THEE problem of "our" generation? probably. i certainly know that it crops up more and more in media and culture than ever before (or maybe it peaked) - from the cartoons of chris ware to "ms. jackson" to banal tv movies of the week. the abandoning father, the estranged father, the fucked up father, and now the "father who doesn't want to be a cliche abandoner, so he has to assert his intentions to 'take care of HIS kids', even though it SHOULD be expected by all rights." gone is even the lip service to the 50s steretype of "noble suffering,"of giving up all for your family, "staying together for the children." instead what we have is a lot of bitter, mildly (or not so) kids, and the sins of the fathers and all that. my father's father abadoned the family when he was very young. surprise surprise, i haven't spoken to my father in 7 yrs. he wasn't a drunk or a junkie, he was just an asshole. (i have vague memories of "minor abuse" - if such a thing even exists - later vaguely corroborated by my mother.) he didn't want kids. period. but even after the divorce - for some unfathomable reason...some basic affection, some stunted emotionalism - he couldn't divorce himself from myself and my sister *totally*. he picked us up for our weekend visits. but other than that, he could give a fuckall. my mother struggled with medical, clothing, food bills...he shrugged at every one: blood from a stone. there were never calls inbetween those weekends. never asked to see our report cards. he just...existed. the Sperm Donor. who we spent 2 weekends a month with, just like the army reserves. i don't know what finally pushed us apart...it was probably me leaving for college and being freed from the yoke of those visits. the silence has been total. aside from the alimony checks my mother recieves every month, he could be dead and i wouldn't know. i saw him once...drove up to his apartment and saw him sitting at the tv in front of the big bay window. i drove away. all my tears about this are dried up, but i know that someday, there will be a hestitant phone call, a hestiant and pathetic attempt at half-assed reconciliation. more than likely from him, but who knows. and, even know i know it wont work, i'll go. like an idiot. still looking for daddy after all those years.

Out of every XY chromosome person I know, not ONE had a good relationship with their fathers. It inevitably fell into one of two categories - a)the fathers were sadistic, intolerant bullies, or b) they were pathetic ineffectual slobs. (Both as seen by the sons, of course.) Sometimes I think that men should limit their role in families to that of invisible sperm provider, and all the recent societal pressure to shoehorn them into a more active familial role is doomed to disaster, if it hasn't resulted already for many.

It sounds like we had very similar experiences, jess.

I'm thinking about this a lot, because I'm terrified that he will die without us talking again. On one level, I want to tell him that I love him despite it all and reconcile. On another level, I don't want to let him off the hook. I want him to admit that he fucked up. Is that just cruel?

you shouldn't let him off the hook, no. but at the same time, i'm not saying that any and all reconcilliation is ultimately doomed to failure. mine probably will be, because my father has always been half-assed (or no assed) about emotional connection. and without that, it will fall down. plus, what i'm really afraid to admit is that even with reconcilliation, i might still never be able to see my father as anything other than a very bad man indeed. and i don't know that i should. i have too much of him in me - my temper, my attitude, my irrationality, my inability to commit - to not know, on some level, what's probably rolling around in his head. but i don't let myself off the hook either. no sir.

Rocking in the same boat. (Work the middle, stroke it for me.)

For a long, long while, I was ripshit pissed off at my dad (conveniently enough, right about the time that those wacky puberty things start happening). He was a weekender, trying to enforce his will while keeping a distance (that is, making me go to church w/ him & the stepmom, going to CCD, getting confirmed - as if it did him any wonders - all while not really concering himself with the day-to-day business of me, or my sister). As I grew older, we talked infrequently, usually when I needed something ($$$) from him, and he was there for that, to a degree. Thing is, I didn't really want the money (well, yeah, I did) - I wanted a FATHER; I wanted someone that said AND ACTED like he gave a shit, when it wasn't convenient for him to do so.

Eventually, I realized that it wasn't in him to be like that. (Working with him for the past couple of years, I've actually gotten "closer" to him than I have with my mudda, who raised me through all the turbulent BS.) He wouldn't be a "dad"; he'd just be himself. He shies away from his grandchildren, doesn't talk to my sister all that often (except to guilt-trip her when they don't call each other for weeks or months @ a time). He pulls rank every so often, just to bust my stones; I bust him right back. We don't talk much about familial stuff; such conversations usually turn into the same old 'what happened w/ the divorce; why couldn't you & mommy stay together, daddy?' inquries that don't do anyone any good. And, of course, my mom and dad say absolutely nothing to each other - grudges and guilt on both sides prevent them from truly reconciling with the other. (Along with other issues I'm not about to hash out here.)

As far as who will make the first move, it would have to depend on the age of the kid. When a kid's going through the terrible teens, the parent HAS to step up and make a concerted effort, and has to be willing to ride out the petulent, spiteful rage bottled up inside the kid. (My dad vaguely tried, during my Bad Years - I pushed him away as far as possible; he gave up for a while.) Around my age (ideally) - say, the mid-to-late 20s - it's more likely that the kid will be the one to initiate the reconciliation. Maturity & some distance from the issues will bring that about; it's only natural (unless the scars run so deep that they never truly stay closed).

There's absolutely no point in trying to force a relationship into something it won't be. It does no good for anyone involved - that garbage about "sucking it up" for the sake of the kids is terrible; better that the children stay with one parent fighting with day-to- day struggles than two parents fighting each other. (When you hear your parents fight day in & day out, it's the type of memory that's hard to erase, regardless of what you do to forget.) It's selfish to create this sort of square-peg-round-hole situation, and in a family, the emotional welfare of the kids should come first and foremost.

I think these sorts of conflicts are like any other fight - both sides have to want to work past the bullshit that initiated the conflict. That means letting the other person off the hook (slightly), and (most importantly) letting YOURSELF off the hook. Shit, unfortunately, happens - learn from it the best you can, move on. If moving on involves that other person, fantastic. If not, you can't sit there and wait on "what if..", because you'll be waiting for a fucking long, long, long time.

(I like to live in a dream world, by the way, where these sorts of conflicts can be resolved with a cup of coffee and a nice, strong hug that gets the right type of something in your eye.)

Hi Jess I ca honestly tell you that I have been there but if you possibly can, for your own sake try to forgive them. The parents feel bad enough as it is. Mine especially do. I had forgiven them a very long time ago. I'll tell you a little bit of how it was for me and then I hope you respond. My father from the start couldn't handle the responsibility of children or work. When I was a newborn people who tried to get a room to live, NO CHILDREN were allowed. ( Sounds like NO PETS ALLOWED) My mom & I went to my Grandmother's to live. Although poor, there was very much love from all the 7 of my mother's sibblings. My Dad helped himself to the money my Grandma had put up for my milk.

Well, I don't know. It's about time fathers assumed SOME of the responsibility for how their kids turned out, considering the 100-odd years of Freudians blaming the mothers for everyone.

I'm not into the cult of abnegation of responsibility for one's own behaviour because your parents weren't perfect. No one's parents were perfect. But I'm saying that in the case of abusive or downright harmful parents (I know equal numbers of people fucked over by fathers and mothers) there is no reason on earth that one should be forced to keep that tie.

I have some serious problems with cutting someone that important out of your life (even if their involvement amounts to inserting Tab A into Slot B) - it's such an unnecessary loss. But, again, like Kate says, sometimes it can't be helped, and often it's for the best. (I'd talk about this on the ex-as-friend thread, but I talk about that enuf as is, so I'll pipe down and chew on my tongue.)

(Mmm, chicken.)

i don't think anyone was abdicating anything in this thread (so far, anyway), least of all responsibility. i don't sit around whining every time i fuck up or fail that it's "all daddy's fault." i *do* worry about what i have inherited, personality-wise, from him. my mother often comments when she can "see him coming out in me." it scares the shit out of me, and i try to fight against it whenever possible. but i'd be lying if i said that my father hasn't completely skewed my notion of family, child-rearing, and fatherhood to the point where i've basically given up on it. out of what? fear of failure? bitterness? old ghosts? probably all three.

I fear that allowing oneself to be estranged from a parent is a form of abnegation of responsibility. Even if I rationalize it to myself as selfpreservation, I know that my father perceives the silence as a condemnation. While I say that I accept responsibility for myself, I'm still allowing someone else to feel guilt about it. I guess I want him to feel guilty about it. But this makes me feel like an asshole, someone who causes guilt and pain.

I'm not sure. :( What I do know is that a child should not be turned against a parent. I think that is the worst. My prob really was when I was a young girl and tried to explain when I & my brother were being raped. I was NOT taken seriously. My Mother thought it was just a way to get out of the foster home.( Although I and my sister had walked through 2 cities to find her.) We were then returned to the same place for more abuse.( another year!) That is part of what I forgave my parents for. You see I was brought up where children were seen & NOT heard at all.

I'm very sorry to hear that Gale. The fact that you were able to reconcile with your parents after that is wonderful.

Thanks X, I consider myself fortunate that we all have a second chance. My both parents are still with me and until my divorce, I had little contact with them. My Mom was living 3000 miles away from me and I hadn't seen her but once in 15 years. My dad lived a few towns away from me and I saw him quite often. Gale