Alice In Wonderland

Not even being called "Allison Wonderland" for the entirety of my elementary school experience stopped me from loving it.

Reminds me of the _Alice_ parody Monty Python had in one of their books -- among other choice bits:

"The Walrus and the Carpenter

Were walking hand in hand

If only, said the Carpenter

The law would understand."

So I kept running across the back of the stage carrying a plate of tarts, stuffing them in my mouth during the entire croquet scene. The entire crowd laughed hysterically whenever I did this. They were good tarts, too, they were home made.

Oh, the book. Yes, classic. Except for Disney abomination which annoys me more than any other in the world...

One time I was in the looney bin, my parents came to visit me separately, bringing books and things for me to read. My mum brought me, like Vogue and some Jane Austen novels. My dad brought me Omni Magazine and Alice In Wonderland. I really thought he was trying to make me STAY in the hospital.

1. It is about ideas - intellectual issues - philosophy turned into brain-teasers. So it has had a long afterlife in the intellectual / academic world, as model / something to quote to lighten the tone. I imagine that the Wittgensteinians and logical positivists, et al, made some hay with it; but so have post-structuralists. It has a pliable sort of quality in this respect, perhaps - it can illustrate whatever paradoxical concept you want it to.

2. It also has an indeterminacy, a mystery about it that has never quite been cleared up - an excess of imagination (over the required, I suppose I mean), a lot of odd juxtapositions and abrupt shifts. It has obviously fed into a general C20 interest (artistic and otherwise) in dreams: Surrealism, Joyce (refs in FW), the 60s / hallucinatory / mind-expansion (hence Jefferson Airplane), etc.

3. Can't underestimate sexuality here - though this is a difficult issue because it skirts the edges of paedophilia, with support from the author's biography. But I think that the appeal of Alice as a figure is mildly analogous to that of later icon Lara Croft. I know nowt about LC's video game, but it seems clear to me that (whatever the game's qualities) a lot of identification / fantasizing is going on to boost its appeal. Would Alice be so popular (or popular in the same way) if (s)he was a boy, or if there were no cute blonde drawings pictures of her in her wee dress and stockings?

4. Then again, this kind of thing also feeds into the cultural imaginary broadly identifiable as 'twee' - ie, roughly, a (neo- Romantic?) cult of childhood, a playing at innocence (nb. possible vital importance of Alice as icon for indie-pop girl look? Never mentioned by Reynolds et al). This needn't have an 'indie' inflection - it can just be a matter of people who are comforted by the thought of buttered scones, Oxford colleges, summers by the river, talking rabbits...

TtLG > AAiW, obv

I have played this! Only briefly, because I was given it just a few months before my PC went BOOM and I ended up with a Mac instead. The heroine looked more like me than she did like Alice though. It was entertaining the few times I played it but I never got very far.

http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2009/06/stoned_in_wonde.php

everyone already bagged on this elsewhere but I still think it might be cool.

Concerns about the movie aside, that's an absolutely horrible article.

1. It is about ideas - intellectual issues - philosophy turned into brain-teasers. So it has had a long afterlife in the intellectual / academic world, as model / something to quote to lighten the tone. I imagine that the Wittgensteinians and logical positivists, et al, made some hay with it; but so have post-structuralists. It has a pliable sort of quality in this respect, perhaps - it can illustrate whatever paradoxical concept you want it to.

This is a really great post. I especially like that very last phrase -- it can and has been used to illustrate many, many philosophical problems, scientific phenomenon, etc etc. Foe example, this rather key concept of evolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen

It's difficult to say that Carroll was engaged even in the science and philosophy of his day, but he had a brain that was so built for puzzles, and such an understanding of how puzzles relate to everyday existence, that he crossed all lines. Carroll was one of the rarest geniuses. His little riddles and trifles manage to say it all.

That his most enduring character is the Hatter may say more about humans than I wish to completely acknowledge.

You know, "Disney and their antiseptic family demo" is actually a pretty trippy and beautiful movie. Id much rather have some kind of mind expanding experience to that than Jan Svankmejer's "Alice".

bigger pix:

http://cityofskies.com/2009/06/22/tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/

Disney's Alice is practically on LSD already, thanks to Mary Blair who I will stan for forever.

http://cartoonmodern.blogsome.com/images/blair_alice.jpg

http://blog.nadinetakvorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/montreal-april-12-mary-blair.jpg

two more

http://www.filmofilia.com/2009/06/22/more-alice-in-wonderland-images/

http://www.designlessbetter.com/blogless/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/223307152_bbf672b08c.jpg

Now that I see those I kinda wish there were more animated renditions than crappy made-for-TV/BBC plays over the years.

Man, that Tim Burton version looks awful. Totally obnoxious.

I'm VERY skeptical about this Burton version but will probably see it anyway. I love both books and have read them numerous times. I used to collect different editions of the books and some other related items too. I'll still see the movie but . . . eek.

jam tomorrow
jam yesterday
but never jam today

I proudly own the url http://neverjamtoday.com. I even have near-future plans for it. It's too good to just sit there.

Laurel: it's a BEAUTIFUL-looking movie, and Wonderland is open to as many visual interpretations as possible. I used to think I had a favorite, but I don't anymore.

And then Alice starts singing. Alice doesn't sing, you cretins! She questions, she worries, she bounces ideas and wryly observes, but she does not SING.

Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYJ8bMOxytM

not anymore :(

Fuxor.

damn, that was fast!

While we wait for a new link/reappearance, Richard Burton as the White Knight from 1983:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH14glXzfSE

So, what: Tim Burton's movie been 'injuncted' ?

No, just the trailer -- I assume they're trying to hold off until it's shown at Comic-Con or something.

Okay, Nikki Finke still has it up:

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/trailer-tims-johnnys-alice-in-wonderland/

ok the thing about this...
i know burton has a hard on for depp but like, why are we rebranding ALICE in wonderland to be LOOK AT ME I AM A MAD HATTER

OK, I need to know about this: My daughter Alice loves Tim Burton's movies (Ed Sciz, BeetleJ, Nightmare Xmas)

.. Disney Copyright claim? WTF!

(xpost oh OK, thx Ned)

Mad Hatter as boss villain with Oddjob's hat from Goldfinger?

that trailer kinda sucks :(

Oh yeah and BOMBASTIC MUSIC doubtless from Elfman.

someone really needs to put a stop to Tim Burton. Once he was great, now I have come to totally loathe his "brand" being slathered on various properties. Whatever Burton does these days, it certainly doesn't qualify as filmmaking.

Oh, it's a Disney film, fair enough..

March 5th 2010? Hmm, 2 days after Alice's 10th birthday? OK, that's one prezzie sorted (or, will be. Or is that USA only as per chiz usual?)

Yep, right up her street. Would have been better if she'd had brown hair, but hey.

Ha, seems I'm the only happy one here.

Hey, it's a scary kids movie. You'll get yours in time.

girlish in the worst sense of that term ?

Well, I have two girls so neh.

Pan's Labyrinth 2: The Dark Side

Has anyone read the Sylvie and Bruno books? (More importantly, did children actually read and comprehend them in the 1800s?) Fascinatingly dense and bizarre books.

i need to go to the library.

Here are the new MPAA ratings from BULLETIN NO: 2107.

Alice In Wonderland
Rated PG For fantasy action/violence involving scary images and situations, and for a smoking caterpillar.
Release Date: March 5, 2010

xpost: "he's light years away from doing Jan Svankmajer any justice." I've got nothing but respect for both Burton and Svankmajer, but they were always light years apart, and I'm certain Burton would be the first to acknowledge that. I'm still interested to see his take on Alice, though.

Or maybe they already figure it sucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKOPh1obHmk&feature=player_embedded

Disturbing in many many ways.

hmmm, I wonder why they chose Tim Burton to direct Alice in Wonderland. I wonder if its going to be weird??? ? ? ?

9. "Very Good Advice" performed by Robert Smith

This I want to hear.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 13 January 2010 17:51 (1 month ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

It's pretty much like you'd expect.

Someone started a little fan page for the movie on knitting site Ravelry, and I wish the description for it was the movie's tagline:

The new movie coming out. Everyone is happy about. You see his picture everywhere.

"Johnny Depp, Helena Bonham Carter, Alan Rickman, and Anne Hathaway. Everyone has been talking about. You’ve seen the movie trailers. Now a group for the 2010 movie. Yes Alice in Wonderland."

there was something interesting on the BBC news website (or the Guardian, or somewhere else) about how a 1900s or 1910s silent film version of Alice is now up on YouTube. Which I can't see.

Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeIXfdogJbA

So I am reading this again and loving it. I'd actually forgotten just how hilariously surreal and quasi-non-linear (or at least non-traditionally plotted) it is. Pinefox's earlier long post is intriguing but this seems curious:

3. Can't underestimate sexuality here - though this is a difficult issue because it skirts the edges of paedophilia, with support from the author's biography. But I think that the appeal of Alice as a figure is mildly analogous to that of later icon Lara Croft. I know nowt about LC's video game, but it seems clear to me that (whatever the game's qualities) a lot of identification / fantasizing is going on to boost its appeal. Would Alice be so popular (or popular in the same way) if (s)he was a boy, or if there were no cute blonde drawings pictures of her in her wee dress and stockings?

I don't get this at all from the book and don't think it's borne out by the illustrations. Alice is clearly a kid and treated as one. I'm actually interested in whether Pinefox (or anyone) could clarify. The Lara Croft analogy seems especially wrong. As my gf notes: "Lara Croft was so intensely designed based on the sort of teen boy gamer fantasy thing as to be a parody".

author's bio and lurid assertions regarding such clouding his interpretation there. I don't think there's anything remotely sexual in the books

What?

She falls down a hole. Her body changing shape is a major theme. There are all sorts of sexual symbolism in the books.

oh yeah, that bit where she eats cake and grows like an erect penis is overtly sexual

And now Lily Cole is the next one to play Alice. Blame Marilyn Manson, apparently.

xp Maybe, but sexual symbolism != Alice is explicitly a sex symbol.

^^^^ding ding

there's sexual symbolism in everything fwiw

"when you point your finger like that, all I see is a penis" etc

that's some finger

Or a pretty lousy penis.

(FYI that is a line/joke from Portlandia)

Would Alice be so popular (or popular in the same way) if (s)he was a boy, or if there were no cute blonde drawings pictures of her in her wee dress and stockings?

Call me crazy, but the success of Alice series is probably due to the generations of children that enjoy a psychedelic whimsical journey. This guy just thinks everyone who enjoys classic literature is as perverted as him.

Finally watched Burton's take on dvd last night and he has now pissed away the very last of his goodwill chips with me. A complete travesty.

I was thinking that this may be the one book where I don't mind (and maybe even like) the "it was all a dream" ending. It's partly because the book is old enough to predate most other uses of the trope but it's mainly because the story is so genuinely dreamlike in its random juxtapositions and absence of a goal-oriented narrative that the twist actually makes sense. It's not a case where one gets invested in a narrative and then feels cheated.

just rewatched the disney 'alice' for the first time in like 15 years. i know ppl like to whine about the 'disneyfication' of the classics and all that crap but it really is striking how uncompromisingly faithful it is to the essence of carroll's story. apart from throwing in some standard '40s-era disney slapstick here and there (the caterpillar's legs falling off his perch, the march hare hitting things with a mallet), most of it comes straight from the books. they don't add a love interest or a cuddly sidekick or give any of the characters backstories. they also don't try to make any of the characters lovable or even friendly at all to alice -- they're pretty much all constantly cruel, aggressive, and vicious to her, to the point where when alice breaks down and cries toward the end it's actually pretty believable and upsetting. it's even more striking that they don't try to impose any real plot -- if anything it seems even more episodic and random than the books (which have a kind of subtle internal narrative that would be hard to pull off in a film). i can't imagine anyone at disney letting this happen now -- hell, it's kind of amazing that it happened at all.

it's great, peak period Disney imho

Great

http://www.deadline.com/2013/07/johnny-depp-finalizing-alice-in-wonderland-2/

Yes! I didn't see the first one, but I'll occasionally go to youtube and watch the Fudderwacken and marvel at the glory of cinema.

have we discussed the devolution of depp on ilx?

I would like that to happen please

i'm reading this w/ my daughters and we read one of my favorite parts tonight: the duchess. she's so pernicious; she beats the poor child when he sneezes which is bad enough but then when he pleases she rewards him w/ pepper which inevitably leads to him sneezing more. what a jerk.

The fact that her baby is a piglet helps to defuse part of the tension around the beatings, but adds another kind of anxiety in its place. A good thing it is all make believe!

Lewis Carroll was a terrible person so afaict this book doesn't actually exist?

i gave him clicks :(

Charles Dodgson's pedophilia seems to have been entirely latent, as far as anyone can discover at this late date.

his photography work is troubling imo

Dodgebullet morelike

the photography (and dodgson in general) needs to be seen in the context of its era imo

You're wanted in the Tao Lin thread!

https://4columns.org/sinker-mark/alice-curiouser-and-curiouser

covers looking glass also (which as a child i preferred, perhaps bcz i am a massive NERD)

I’m going to that exhibition on Saturday and looking forward to it a lot.

Enjoying your review - though not quite sure I understand your criticism about the one great omission of language as a theme. That sounds like something that - say - the British Library exhibition might explore,rather than the V&A which focuses on art and design? Perhaps I’ll change my mind after visiting though.

Brilliant review Mark!

Our Alice is looking forward to getting to see this, but it's proving difficult...

Thought the section of the exhibition on the influence of Alice on fashion wasn't so good:

https://i.imgur.com/G9BE5lu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J5ZCECK.jpg

Mark sent out the 4Columns link in group email, so I responded:
Mark's piece makes me feel like I'm at/in the exhibit, sorting through all this in realtimes., down the well-trod rabbithole, but still things I didn't know and/or hadn't thought about. (Mention of Alce and Lolita Cult, which I hadn't heard of, reminds me that Kubrick's Lolita [the only one I know]seems like the sanest person in the film--maybe her husband will be sane too, but we don't know-just know that her rational self-interest is, so far, by the ending, taking her far beyond imploded rabbit hole of the pervs, though we also don't know what kind of a wife and mom she will be)
I saw Dreamchild back in the 80s too, didn't remember the Dennis Potter connection, but a great and Potteresque idea-- deserved and I think got very good reviews, though I haven't seen a mention in a long time---maybe some of it's on the 'Tube
Likewise, I hope these two UK TVersions, which I saw via early DVDs from the library, are online somewhere:
1) Jonathan Miller's filmed play was BBC '66, but not more trippy than thee material had to be:
Miller's production is unique among live-action Alice films in that he consciously avoided the standard Tenniel-inspired costume design and "florid" production values. Most of the Wonderland characters are played by actors in standard Victorian dress, with a real cat used to represent the Cheshire Cat. Miller justified his approach as an attempt to return to what he perceived as the essence of the story: "Once you take the animal heads off, you begin to see what it's all about. A small child, surrounded by hurrying, worried people, thinking 'Is that what being grown up is like?'"[1]. Alice an amateur actress, one and done, apparently, but w Gielgud, Peter Sellers, Peter Cook, Dudley Moore etc etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_in_Wonderland_(1966_TV_play)
2)The 1972 version is slicker (by '72 TV standards), with Tenniel-style art direction, and, music by John Barry--wonder if he had anything to do with this Alice, Fiona Fullerton, becoming a Bond girl? Speaking of what Mark points out about Space Age--to-21rst Century Alice (and the performers who learned from her) her age now as uneasily mutable as her size once was in Wonderland. Fullerton doesn't flirt with the camera, and the production doesn't pimp her out, but keyword is indeed "mutable" (she was 16, sometimes seeming younger as she played the straight-man to all the weirdos, but never wispy or wimpy or for that matter so much like Tenniel's Alice(I I felt less 'uneasy" than startled at some of her down to earth wtf reactions and brownette stare,teengirl trying to get a bead on this geezer shit) Moore and Sellars are in it again, this time w Spike Milligan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice%27s_Adventures_in_Wonderland_(1972_film)

And he rssponded with a link to his ace Sight & Sound take:
I wrote a piece about Alice on film a few years back for Sight and Sound (which discusses Dreamchild and the Jonathan Miller version, as well as Disney and Svankmajer: both were shown — via looped clips — at the V&A): http://old.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/feature/49605

My original paragraph on psychedelia in this piece was much longer, the intention being to offset Yayoi Ksumama (as a damaged child of the 60s with Alice thoughts) against Grace Slick (as an undergrounder trailblazer) — but I could tell even as I was writing it that I hadn't space without underselling it, so I didn’t complete the thoughts. A video — which is to say a recording of a TV performance — of “White Rabbit” was playing: I think I could write 5000 words about it on its own. (On Yayoi too… )

I did enjoy the exhibition overall. I think these V&A blockbuster pack a lot in, but it's a slightly uneasy pot pourri. The manuscripts and illustrations are great, and displayed much better than in the British Library museum exhibition (2013 I think) where everyone was ridiculously forced to crowd around a couple of display cabinets in a huge cavernous space. I could have done with a bit more of Lewis Carroll's photography, and some more on Alice Liddell. I found all of the other sections of the exhibition a bit disappointing and a bit threadbare (pun not intended for the fashion section) and superficial.

Mark's review is good - though docking a point or two for harping on about Lewis Carroll being an "oddball".

(Also:

... but nevertheless, the capacious wardrobes at the V&A are today hung deep with Alice-related items, as we now see, from the hands of Vivienne Westwood, Viktor & Rolf, the street fashions of the Japanese Lolita cult.

It's not clear (to me at least) that the Vivienne Westwood crown above is even related to Alice...and there were better Westwood items to chose from...She even did the cover for a 150th year anniversary edition!