_On Bullshit_ - Harry G. Frankfurt

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Has anyone read this? Is it worth the $10?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

I suspect the name.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)

BACKGROUND: This is a 20-year-old essay by an emeritus professor from Princeton that describes the difference between lying ("you know the truth and are trying to conceal it") and bullshit ("you don't care what the truth is, you just want to coerce people into acting a certain way regardless of reality") and the impact of bullshit on society. I kind of want to read it but I suspect that I've already gleaned any insight I could get from it out of Frankfurt's appearance on "The Daliy Show" last night.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

Good lord, I thought his name was a spam name!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

So, I take it no one's read/heard of this, then.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 20:40 (twenty years ago)

Well, you've intrigued me at least. But nope, not heard of him until this very thread.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 20:44 (twenty years ago)

Somebody at work was talking about this and they even brought it in to share. It's a very tiny book. You could easily read it in one sitting. Not sure if it's worth the $10, but it seemed kind of amusing from the little I scanned of it.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

It seemed like a cute book, and the weight he took all of JS's questions on the Daily Show makes me think the book might be worth reading. Surely you could just read it at the bookstore, though.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 21:24 (twenty years ago)

After that appearance on the Daily Show last night, I have been thinking about the difference between lying and bullshitting, and why bullshitting is actually worse, even though it doesn't feel that way to the bullshitter. And I gained some insight, I suppose, into why it bothers me so much to listen to my boss bullshit people all day, and why it makes me sick when he tries to convince me to do the same to people (always in the name of saving himself a few bucks). He seems to think that bullshit is some essential life skill. And maybe it is, in his world. Please, God, don't ever let me be a rich businessman or a salesman.

― sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 21:28 (twenty years ago)

("you know the truth and are trying to conceal it") and bullshit ("you don't care what the truth is, you just want to coerce people into acting a certain way regardless of reality")

Yes, and Frankfurt thinks bullshit is the more dangerous, since it denies the power of the truth, argues that the truth is inconsequential.

― sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)

Question: would anyone other than a chronic, habitual bullshitter ever use the phrase, "I'm not going to bullshit you..."

Or my favorite, "To be honest with you..." I hear that one about ten times a day, I estimate.

When they're being honest with you, just YOU, because YOU deserve the SPECIAL FAVOR of honesty, you are listeing to someone weave a web of bullshit.

― sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

not neccessarily. people have their verbal tics (i suspect that particular one might even be one of mine) and like many other such things, it's a habit that you don't even think about or even if deliberate, you might be saying it because it gives a second to compose the rest of the thought.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 23:31 (twenty years ago)

i heard about this a coupla months ago. i wanna read it.

― kingfish van pickles (Kingfish), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 04:06 (twenty years ago)

You can find it complete on the net. Check arts and letters daily, I think. Or maybe even here, in the archives. It's good, but not brilliant.

― Fa Fa fa FA, Fa fa Fa fa FA Fa (poop), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 06:46 (twenty years ago)

I had a professor who was very strict about breaking all of our bullshitting habits. This meant not only fluff paragraphs in papers, but even obvious guesses on quizzes. He taught us that if we didn't know the answer, we should just leave it blank. Not only is it more intellectually honest, but the honesty would cause us to do a better job studying the next time. He was right.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 07:14 (twenty years ago)

I read this online some time ago. Some of the sites that used to have it have taken it down out of respect for the belated cash-in attempt. But it's still up here. Yeah, good but not brilliant is about right. Props to whoever at Princeton figured out they could make some dosh on it.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 08:01 (twenty years ago)

i enjoyed it but then i read it for free

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 09:00 (twenty years ago)

I'm not going to bullshit you, I only read the first third of it and then started scanning.. Strikes me as a bit of a swindle, charging $10 for a short essay that carefully explains the difference between lying and bullshitting.

Because I think the proper response to bullshit is, "whatever."

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

i think the (vaguely) interesting bit wz the discussion of the (maybe) greater social pressure towards spoutin bullshit in the present-day, compared to the past = why there is maybe more now proportionally than there used to be

(he said he wasn't sure if there WAS more proportionally now, but IF there was here is a possible reason/mechanism)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

The essay does get to the heart of my political philosophy of lying which I know has occasionally upset people around here. I lie. I do not bullshit. I deliberately go out of my way to construct increasingly more complex deviations from the truth for entertainment. This may not be nice, but i am well aware of what i am doing when I do it -and will under the correct circumstances admit it.

I do not lie about my work, about my friends and personal relationships.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

"Excrement is not designed or crafted at all; it is merely emitted, or dumped. It may have a more or less coherent shape, or it may not, but it is in any case certainly not wrought."

If only all philosophy had nuggets (ew!!!) like this!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 16 March 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

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