The Israeli government

America is in a tight spot though because now we have been going on about fighting terrorosts so we have to back others who are also fighting terrorists.

I fail to see how completely random attacks on civilian areas can be perceived as "fighting terrorists", on whatever construction you decide to use.

Sharon has been playing the terrorists at their own game for too long, it's dangerous, inflammatory and as counter to the peace process as its possible to be, short of an all-out declaration of war. One random attack in response to another cannot be seen as pinpointing terrorists.

Whatever the views of the conflict in Afghanistan, at the very least, one can say with an element of certainty that the military action undertaken at least involves a modicum of coordination and intelligence.

The actions taken by Sharon and his government have been despicable and unspeakable, as just about everything he has done since he has taken office has been.

there seems to be an endless circle of hate, a black hole of loatheing in Isreal

Comparing the death of the tourism minister (was it the tourism minister?) to the deaths of all the people in the WTC etc. was the final straw for me. No jaffa oranges this Christmas.

I notice Israel says that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the Palestinians, as the West Bank and Gaza Strip are "disputed" territories rather than "occupied" territories.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1693000/1693 125.stm

[copy and paste the link into your browser, I'm tired]

America may be in an awkward position (more to do with pro-Israeli lobbies back home than terrorism stance?) but that's no excuse for it's current policy yo-yoing. One death at hands of suicide bomber: show restraint, pull your tanks out, get talking. 25 deaths: you have a free hand, Sharon, do what you think best.

The whole thing is just pathetic. It's not even the flipside to what's happening in Afghanistan, more the Siamese twin...

I'm curious, does anyone here straightforwardly support Israel?

Dunno, but if I was any kind of responsible parent, I'd tell my kid not to throw rocks at tanks. How much common sense do you need to know not to do that?

And if you were in charge of a bunch of soldiers, would you give orders to shoot at kids?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, Sharon is a terrorist by any reasonable definitinion. My views on violence and especially killing are well known. The fact is that there are outstanding UN resolutions that state categorically that Isreal should withdraw unconditionally from the west bank and gaza strip and that refugees from isreal should be allowed to return home.

The situation in Isreal is much like that of South Africa in the early 80s, with the PLA little more than a tinpot 'bantustan'. Far superoir to some half arsed land deal would be a secular pluralist majority government for the whole of palestine and all the people that live their, jew, moslem, christian etc.

oh no, un resolutions! the most anti-semitic organization in existence is anti-israel, what a shock! but then so is most of the european media so i suppose sympathies are expected. the palestinians have no historic claim on the land, there has never been an independent state of palestine, they didn't begin moving back to the area until the 1880s when the jews began moving back. palestine is derived from phillistea, which means only non-semitic not palestinian. there were not any palestinians until arafat began his terrorist organization in 1967 until then they were called southern- syrians and they have always been part of some larger empire and more palestinians live in jordan than in the disputed areas. fact is arafat made a huge blunder, barak was willing to give him everything he wanted, control of all disputed territories and a split jerusalem as capitol and he said no. why? becaue his goal is the destruction of israel and jews, i don't see how this is analogous to south africa? palestinians in israel have freedoms and rights they don't enjoy in the palestine authority which is a police state with a tinhorn dictator. and that israel should be admonished for fighting a war with those bent on its destruction is typical, i've always wanted to start a topic -'taking sides: living in the world that exists vs. living in one you wished existed?' and i suppose all the sontag and said readers would join barbara kingsolver in the latter.

but do you agree that secular multi-ethnic government over all of isreal/palestine would be better than the current mess.

One thing that really upsets me is that debate on this subject is always stifled whenever anything is said against isreal by someone popping up and saying something along the lines of, 'that argument is anti-semitic'. Let me say here and now that I am intensly suspicious of organised religion (believing belief is a private thing and some to be discovered within oneself, not derived from the catechisms of a corrupt priest).

Perhaps the south african analogy doesn't hold true all the way but it does for something. You have a ghettoised and scattered refugee majority pushed into smaller and smaller parcels of land by a (largely) immigrant minority. Restricitions are placed upon the movement and residency of the majority (in this acse by the west bamk settlements). So-called palestinians are in-effect restricted in the jobs they can do.

Where Isreal have suceeded where Botha and the National party failed is to create a sucessful bantustan* in the PLA. Arafat is part of the problem not the solution, he is as brutal a terrorist as Sharon. The solution is not separate staes as then the bigots, zionists and islamists will have won, the solution is a secular state spanning the current isreal, west bank and gaza strip with a pluralist democratic government.

*Bantustans were areas of south africa for black south africans to live in under 'tribal leaders', supposedly where black south africans were free from 'white domination'. However all they did was install a layer of tinhorn puppet dictators with brutally. The south african government attempted to tie all black south africans to one of these areas severly restricting the ability of black south africans to work in'white designated areas'

I fail to see how completely random attacks on civilian areas can be perceived as "fighting terrorists", on whatever construction you decide to use.

I really like this statement because it can be applied to Israel, America, and Palestine.

And yet now Arafat is actually taking on the militants (remember them? those Palestinians who killed 28 innocent people last week?). Time will tell if its a smokescreen or the real deal.

"The World That Exists vs The World You Wish Existed" - the latter may be utopian, but the former just makes you Pangloss, surely?

Anyway I've stayed off this thread because I don't know enough. Can anyone recommend a good history of the region, preferably one that gives as many viewpoints as possible?

"The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim is meant to be good. He is an Israeli writer who draws on Israeli official documents to cast a less mythologising eye on the history of his country.

Israeli cheerleaders tend not to like that book, or other publications by the Israeli new historians. So it might be worth reading some kind "Go Israel!" book for balance. Can anyone recommend one such book? I don't want something as moronic as the aptly named "The Middle East For Complete Idiots", more something that is aware of Israeli revisionist historians and addresses their arguments.

I've just finished a very short general history of the Middle East, which seems to me anyway to be a marvel of succinctness and fairness. It's "A History of the Middle East" by Peter Mansfield.

I found "Rewriting the Palestine War", edited by Avi Shlaim and Eugene Rogan interesting as a snapshot of the period around the foundation of the state of Israel.

Robert Fisk's book about Lebanon seems to be great.

Thanks DV - that Mansfield book sounds the ticket.

It is an amazing book, very fluid writing, very short without giving you the feeling important details were left out.

thanks to it I now know (or suspect) why Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammed Ali. Or have a wrong theory about this.

(remember them? those Palestinians who killed 28 innocent people last week?)

Fair point. A problem with the Israel-Palestine thing is Israel's tendency to lash out whenever attacked, with the result that everyone forgets the initial attack and concentrates instead on Israel's subsequent actions. Also, the Israeli leadership seems to feel that any attack requires massive retaliation, without any consideration of whether this is going to trigger future attacks. I mean, since the start of the second Intifada we've seen continuous murders by Israeli forces of Palestinian leaders and frequent incursions into Palestinian reservations, all supposedly to prevent violence against Israel. However, their only effect seems to have been to up the ante and increase Palestinian attacks. You don't have to be some kind of pro-Palestinian weirdo to wonder whether a different policy might be more likely to give Israelis the security they obviously crave.

Jews are the chosen ones...... After all we print the newspapers you read and control the TV you watch. We control America too. We will control you scum too soon! VIVA ISRAEL!!! VIVA ZIONISTS IN NY!!

i think it'd be really funny if there was an obsessive anti-semite version of robin, like making up all the same ridiculous characters and stuff but instead of parodying conservative views they'd all have far-out zionist plots and expose how evil the jews actually are.

Although Jews aren't evil there are some evil bastards in charge of Israel at the moment and the founding and maintaining principles of the jewish state are somewhat dubious. Israel ought to be a secular democracy for all of the peoples living there.

A question for Keith and BNW: do you really think that the anti- Israel coverage some of the Western media have is at root anti- semitic? I mean, I've read some disturbingly uncritical anti-Israel articles (although less than the disturbingly uncritical anti- Palestine articles) but they all seem to be more motivated by a sort of kneejerk anti-Westernism*. Like, we distrust Israeli Government because we see ourselves in it, rather than because Jewish people are the other.

*Not that kneejerk anti-Westernism is necessarily the incorrect response in many areas.

If u want peace then get rid of Sharon! He has built his career on nothing but murder.

The Israali primeminister is a war criminal. He got War criminals and killers out of prison, dressed them up in soldier uniform. Armed them with knives gun bombs and torture instruments.Sent them in to the small population of 2000 people

Attorney-General Elyakim Rubinstein charged yesterday that the indictment in Belgium against Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and former IDF officers linked to the 1982 Sabra and Shatila Massacre was a political rather than a judicial act. http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/07/11/News/News.30175.html

USA-Rat-Arse(USA-Ronin (Mar 2 2002 - 15:36)\)read this An American wrote this:

Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, is one of the world's most bloodstained terrorists. He is responsible for the cold-blooded slaughter of at least 1,500 men, women and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Chatila and Sabra. Even a formal Israeli commission found Sharon personally responsible for the Lebanese massacres.(4)

In 1982, as Israel's defense minister, Sharon directed Israel's invasion of Lebanon and the carpet bombing and devastation of the city of Beirut (In Lebanon five times more women and children died than in the September New York attack). This terror bombing was carried out by Jews using jet fighters and bombs supplied by the United States.

After the Israeli military devastation and occupation, Sharon forcibly removed Palestinian resistance fighters from Lebanon. Many Palestinian women, children and old people were left behind in refugee camps near Beirut. The United States publicly guaranteed their safety and promised that they would quickly be reunited with their loved ones. When Sharon plotted their murder, he not only planned a bloody act of terrorism against the refugees; he knew it was an act of treachery against the United States that would raise intense hatred against America.

On the night of September 16, 1982, Sharon sent Phalangist murder squads into two Palestinian refugee camps, Sabra and Chatila. With Israeli tanks and troops closely surrounding the camps to prevent any of the Palestinians from escaping, the murder squads machine-gunned, bayoneted, and bludgeoned Palestinian civilians all that night, the next day and the following night; all while the Israelis surrounding the camps listened gleefully to the machine gun fire and screams coming from inside. Sharon then sent in bulldozers to hide as much of the atrocity as he could. At least 2000 old men, women and children were butchered, and perhaps as many as 2500. (An official Lebanese investigation set the figure at 2500) Even after the efforts of Sharon's bulldozers, many Palestinians remained unburied, and Red Cross workers found whole families; including hundreds of elderly and little children, with their throats cut or disemboweled. Uncounted numbers of women and girls were also raped before they were slaughtered.

Ariel Sharon is sought for trial by the Hague Tribunal, the same body that succeeded in extraditing former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic for charges of crimes against humanity in Kosovo. Sharon will not travel to Belgium for fear of arrest by the International Court for the massacre.(5) http://www.minneapolis.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3533

. EVEN A FORMAL ISRAELI commission found Sharon PERSONALLY responsible for the Lebanese massacres.(

Atama Ii (Jan 18 2002 - 08:00) "Wasn't Sharon, after all, the one that said that Israel controlled the U.S.?" Do you have more info on this. Just curious....

I will have a look 4 you, but I think it may be controll in a more indirect tacticall fashion.

Heres an example:

"Many Palestinian women, children and old people were left behind in refugee camps near Beirut. The United States publicly guaranteed their safety and promised that they would quickly be reunited with their loved ones. When Sharon plotted their murder, he not only planned a bloody act of terrorism against the refugees; he knew it was an act of treachery against the United States that would raise intense hatred against America."

http://www.minneapolis.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3533

A good example of a smaller country outwitting and tactically controlling a larger one! Read The Article, "Sharon regrets not killing Arafat"

I personally think this website is one of the stupidest, most racist, and most one-sided I have ever seen!!! As an Israely, I too dislike Sharon because he spends practically all his budget on the military and shows the world only 1 side of Israel. But calling him a terrorist is extremely absurd!!! He might be an idiot but not a war criminal! only 50 palestinians were killed in the Jenin "massacre" (a clever piece of arab propaganda) and only 20 homes destroyed out of 2000!!!Doesn't the Koraan (did I spell it right?) preach tolerance towards ALL religions, regardless of what they do?. Almost all of hate crimes in Europe (firebombing synagogues, beating up jewish kids in the street and almost killing them ...etc)were comitted by Muslim terrorists, or nationalists, whatever you want to call them. Also, how could palestinians have lived in Israel since 2000 B.C if their religion was created 2600 years later?!? Pure arab government propaganda mambo-jumbo. I think this is the first letter submitted to this anti-jews filled website that wasn't written by brainwashed arabs or 14 year olds belonging to the Nazism For Kids program.

One thought, Leah. 'Only' 50 lives ... at one point does body count equal a massacre? Is 50 a small amount?

If this is an "anti-jews" website, someone is doing a pretty horrid job of watchng the door.

I'm sorry you feel we are racist here - it's not an impression I get from posting here a lot, if anything, racism is stomped on pretty harshly.

In terms of your arguing that Sharon is not a war criminal for what was done in Jenin, perhaps you are right. However it seems almost certain that he should face charges of War Crimes for what he did in the early 1980s as head of the IDA in Lebanon. I find Arafat's involvement with terrorism disgusting and offensive and reprehensible; I also find Israel's contiinual occupation of Palestinian land despite UN resolutions stretching back 40 years equally despicable. I support niether side in this battle, but I do support h onesty and open discussion.

Please feel free to come back here and talk about these issues. I'm sure many of us could benefit from an open and honest discussion with someone who lives in the area.

"Almost all of hate crimes in Europe (firebombing synagogues, beating up jewish kids in the street and almost killing them ...etc)were comitted by Muslim terrorists, or nationalists"

I'm pretty sure this isn't true, I thought most of the attacks were by neanderthals aligning themselves with the very nazis you speak of.

also last time i looked, i was neither an arab nor a 14 year old kid with a shaved head... if I was the latter, knowing me, I owuld probably be trying to suck my own cock right now.