minority races among white race compared with introverts among extroverts

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In American culture as a male W.A.S.P. I'm a majority, but as an Introvert Intuitive on the Myers-Briggs i'm a minority. Generally in actual experience my introversion overshadows any of my race or gender, and likewise my view of others is more based on their personality instead of their race or gender. Is this a legitimate chain of thought and what race relations should be like? And, is there any need to consider people with minority personalities in any special ways?

I'm not sure at what I'm getting at with this, I'm just trying to understand more about power among cultures/personalities and it's correct and incorrect uses.

I'm planning on reading Content of Our Character:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006097415X/qid=1112741442/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-1914772-5809435?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

and Heart of Racial Justice
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830832696/qid=1112741511/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-1914772-5809435?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

any others?

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 21:55 (twenty years ago)

In American culture as a male W.A.S.P. I'm a majority.

No you're not.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

he's a plurality in the population, a monopoly in the seats of power

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

not majority, but group that holds most power

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

Even each one of those categories taken alone wouldn't constitute a majority.

xpost (going to say plurality as well)

― absolutego (ex machina), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

I think white is majority in America

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

apart maybe from sports, personality types don't function as political or cultural groups much (at all?), so it seems a bit odd trying to sketch the politics that would result if they did

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

I dunno... white media and entertainment industry portrays its core-audience as culturally dominant, but that strikes me as tremendously self-serving and willfully close-minded.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:09 (twenty years ago)

White is still the majority in the US, but not in California.

― andy --, Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

Well, paint me pink and call me a honky! US is still 75% white. I thought it was somewhere in the low 60s. But more to my point: White Anglo-Saxon Protestant is, as demographic category, a very small percentage of total population. And with all of the glommed-on media-business to the WASP label (white-collar, college educated, upper-middle class, heterosexual, male) it represents and even tinier slice of the total population. Not one, I think, that does represent a political plurality. Unfortunately, and as a historically-motivated fact, it's in the best financial interests of the news & entertainment media to present this image as the 'generic' to every audience, and sub-divide w./in this even-very-limited category using any means necessary to justify naval-gazing self-obsesssion. By self-analysis on, for instance, psychological-lines, it's able to devote the majority of space to its own (scant) plight while maintaining a token-only representation of non Rich-White-Male-Anglo/Saxon-Protestant-Educated-etc. populations.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:27 (twenty years ago)

A Nairn i think the second of those two books wd be excellent for a summary of how guilty conservatives interpret the persistence of racism in America: as Black Americans' fault

in other words, a "challenging" book if you have 2 cents' worth of thought in your head, but soothing if you don't

i've never heard of the first book but the customer review says this: "Change starts with one individual." which gets civil rights and the progress of racial justice in America exactly backwards :(

i kind of agree w/mark that it's odd to imagine introversion as comparable to race, since i can't think of anyone that organizes themselves along these lines, even subliminally?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:29 (twenty years ago)

represents and even (xpost)

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

Being a WASP (white-collar, college educated, upper-middle class, heterosexual, male) how does one not be considered dominating, self-obsessed, etc.?

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:31 (twenty years ago)

This is the point where I usually trip-up on my own logic. But I think that if one does fall into that category, one must be constantly aware of one's advantage and take (though never at the cost of self-destruction) special and intentional care to recognize the uniqueness of one's situation as not the generic, but the 'authentic' thing the cultural 'generic' loosely represents.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:36 (twenty years ago)

"i kind of agree w/mark that it's odd to imagine introversion as comparable to race, since i can't think of anyone that organizes themselves along these lines, even subliminally?"

Comparing these came from talking with someone about how dominating "my" culture is among other cultures, but me thinking that on a personal level I'm always feeling as the least dominating among a group because of my personality.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:36 (twenty years ago)

passive agressive's are totally dominant now dude, don't fool yourself

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

Nairn - the fact that you're able to identify a psychologically intrinsic trait as the most socially oppressive operator in your life indicates a huge privilege.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:38 (twenty years ago)

otm

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

tracer i'm kinda surprised you haven't heard of the shelby steele - it was a pretty big deal at the time. not COMPLETE garbage, basically 'look just do what they say and noone will get hurt ok?' as social 'science'. better than d'souza, which ain't saying much.

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

argg, Maybe I should be more agressively not passive agressive, because I always come off as passive agressive when I'm not trying to.

I don't want this thread to be specfically about me. I'm just using myself as an example.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:49 (twenty years ago)

How should a hugely privileged person think about race and help solve any problems that may arise from race relations or talking about race relations. Or because of their huge privilege, do they often do more harm than good?

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:52 (twenty years ago)

Race seems to me a less prescient issue than many others, currently. Using one's privilege for positive political change (whatever your persuasion) seems to me, at least, to appropriate one's power for the best purpose.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:54 (twenty years ago)

argg, Maybe I should be more agressively not passive agressive, because I always come off as passive agressive when I'm not trying to.

yeah, like whenever "Jesus" or "George Bush" are mentioned.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)

(that was aggressive as Eisbar always is.)

In a democracy the dominant group should not necessarily give all its power or share power with the subdominant group, but should use it's power to help the subdominant group? Should the subdominant group except this help, try to get some share of power, or try become the dominant group?

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:58 (twenty years ago)

maybe i confused the order of the two; the shelby steele's the one i've heard of, which is why i felt able to criticize it as harshly as i did although perhaps not as resoundingly as it deserves

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)

It's not a question of 'giving' power - it's more an issue of promoting equitable treatment and advantage across cultural lines. (xpost)

and Shelby Steele does deserve very harsh criticism.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)

what is a good book on the topic that is different from Shelby Steele's?

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

the autobiography of malcolm x

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

for a "personal" look at minority justice you cd try "Silver Rights" - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0156004798/qid=1112747151/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-1736953-8563064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)

this wasn't a momus thread?!?!

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:38 (twenty years ago)

i have a feeling these books aren't going to float Nairn's boat.. hmm introverted white men writing books about their persecution.. Mein Kampf? haha THREAD OVER!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:40 (twenty years ago)

I've read some of Malcolm X's autobio at work and was interested and want to read more.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:42 (twenty years ago)

FYI: Alex Haley - the ghostwriter - whitewashes some of Malcolm's more radical ideas from that book, there was new evidence about this recently but it's vanished from my brane-records

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:51 (twenty years ago)

Mein Kampf didn't get any of it's radical ideas whitewashing, right?

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)

I think you want Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 01:57 (twenty years ago)

-- A Nairn

My grandmother once met James Baldwin after a lecture. As she tells it, she innocently asked him, "Mr. Baldwin, what can I do to help your cause?" He replied, "Honey, whatever you do, don't do it for me. Do it for yourself."

I'm not sure what that adds to the discussion, but I think it's funny.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:02 (twenty years ago)

TOm is TOTALLY OTM .. that's the book, Nairn!

the general vibe in the 60s, at least as I understand it, among civil rights leaders, was that white activists needed to attend to white people, not as in "white rights" but as in probs of social justice that disproportionately affected whites and which were pretty unconnected w/black justice movements, specifically rural poverty; this might be kind of what baldwin had in mind

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:06 (twenty years ago)

I think he might have been also saying, in a cheeky, roundabout way, that she shouldn't fool herself into thinking her motives for wanting to help black civil rights (or for doing anything, for that matter) were totally unselfish.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:09 (twenty years ago)

or maybe he was saying the opposite, that unless she had selfish motives - rather than at best, motives altruistic or at worst patronizing - she wouldn't be able to accomplish much

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:26 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, that sounds about right.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:27 (twenty years ago)

or maybe y'know discrimination on basis other than real merit is a problem that affects THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE not to put too fine or cliched a point on this bitch

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:44 (twenty years ago)

otmfmwtfbbq

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:57 (twenty years ago)

well, per "the fire next time" he may have meant "if we don't get this figured out, it's NOI city from here on out."

which is what tom said.

― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 03:03 (twenty years ago)

i heart baldwin, btw.

― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 03:04 (twenty years ago)

"maybe y'know discrimination on basis other than real merit is a problem that affects THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE"

Yeah, but what if all your bases belong to the side with the least discrimination? They are more oftened judged on real merit, and probably have some sort of social responsiblity to have real merit.

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 03:28 (twenty years ago)

Charles Barkley's book he's talking about on Letterman, right now:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594200424/qid=1112761916/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-1914772-5809435?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 03:33 (twenty years ago)

HAHAHA CHARLES BARKLEY IS BLACK AND LETTERMAN'S WHITE

― Remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 03:51 (twenty years ago)

Nairn if you're saying what I think you're saying I'm kind of disgusted, but I don't think that you can possibly think that i.e. that white people are not discriminated against because of their race, so therefore must feel more personal responsibility to be good citizens than people who are discriminated against because of their race? Please don't say you're saying that. Not only because the "logic" involved simply doesn't work but because it's such an ugly, superior, and mean way of thinking. I'll let you explain what you mean, though, because I think I must be misunderstanding somehow.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 04:14 (twenty years ago)

I'm holding out hope that isn't your meaning, as well.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 04:22 (twenty years ago)

exaactly guys it's very nice that rich whtie men are putting so muchh money into trying to repeal that pesky capital gains tax instead of like helping oppressed ppl. ]

it wd be really terrible if they were devoting their money t o something that didn't personally effect their life and besides you can't REALLY be unselfish lol thats deeep!!

― holding out hope, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

(I'm trying to figure out if it would be a horrible idea for me to participate in this thread.)

― The Ghost of Token Malik Jefferson (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:51 (twenty years ago)

"that white people are not discriminated against because of their race, so therefore must feel more personal responsibility to be good citizens than people who are discriminated against because of their race?"

"because I think I must be misunderstanding somehow."

It's some misunderstanding and some miscommunicating on my part.
My intentions are the farthest from ugly, superior, and mean ways of thinking. Yet sometimes I come across as that. I'll formulate what's on my mind and post later when it's more coherent.

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

It would be a good idea, Dan.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

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