Belfast

What pisses me off is fucking rich, sentimental, ignorant Americans who just go on contributing money to "The Cause" because their great-grandparents fled Ireland a hundred years before. They wouldn't be caught dead giving money to the PLO (who are actually more "justified" if we're going to talk about causes) or a terrorist group, but still they'll happily fund the IRA. That drives me insane. I have otherwise completely sensible American friends who are just stupid about it.

Simon, has this thread not turned out the way you wanted?

P.S. Why is OK for it to happen in Palestine, Jamaica or Kosovo?

I have actually been really impressed with the way the peace process in Northern Ireland has lurched from one crisis to another without completely falling apart. Again we are at another critical juncture yet it seems that most of the key people involved (for which read Sinn Fein, the British Government and the Irish Governemnt) want to try to get it on track. Frankly the ceasefire has saved a lot of lives over the last five years - with only the badly organised and pretty much impossible to legislate for so Real IRA to worry about. (Did they think of this name after watching the Real Ghostbusters I wonder).

If you want to talk about Palestine, I'm your man baby.

Mark - thank you. I knew I'd got it wrong. I'll never make it as a comedian.

What a lot of the Republicans do not realise is that if they had a United Ireland then they wouldn't get British Terrestrial TV anymore. Hah!

Scratch the surface of any American and there's a bloody cowboy in there. I think I'd rather have a medieval serf than that.

I could start in on my explanation of terrorists and gang warfare and everything else, but you know, I'd only have to get Platonic on yer arses, and then you'd call me an elitist and a classist again and it might get ugly.

Yes, but it's only for the Americans.

The past few weeks of life in Britain has convinced me that it would probably be best for everyone if the state was more secular here. By which I mean a republic, because those with the Queen's religion would not have those annoying entitlement issues that fuck it up for the rest of us. And yada yada Constitution, because it doesn't count until it's written down like everyone else's.

Back home, my town was faith-split almost equally between Catholics, Protestants and Jews, and we all had to go to the same school. If people wanted religious instruction, they went after or on weekends. If there was a question about faith or background people seemed happy to give you a That's Why answer, to the benefit of everyone. And yeah, I really believe the separation of church'n'state in the US Constitution means that even though there is a vicious Bible Belt in America, it will always be held in check by laws made to protect everyone and favour no one.

And while we're here, can I just heap scorn on the notion of 'tolerance'? I HATE this passive-aggressive word, it suggests that one is merely 'tolerating' the activities of the Not You or the Other rather than actually ACCEPTING difference and life in a multicultural, pluralistic society.

But let's don't muddle up neighbour soundclashes with issues of sectarianism or racism (although apparently that's how the Oldham riot started). I just think 'tolerance' conjures up an image of arms-crossed body language just as vividly as someone saying 'I'm not racist, but...'. And tolerance is what we build up to disease on an organic level, so do you take my point?

Why people don't recognize that Lloyd Cole has achieved anything in the last 16 years, I'm not sure. But that question is unpursuable and had best be left to fade away in morning's dewy grass.

>>> And tolerance is what we build up to disease on an organic level, so do you take my point?

No. One reason I don't is that I don't know medical things like you do. Another is that I think that people who don't like each other are doing quite well if they can manage to tolerate each other. To expect them to love each other is probably to expect too much.

In which case, I quite agree. But this view (which I suggest we both share) is a long way from the 'reality' of life in NI. Isn't it? (What do I know?; I've never been.)

By the way, earlier in thread Suzy said:

>>> But disliking people on basis of religion or race is flat-out WRONG

Is it? Is it worse than disliking people for other reasons? Let me think. My overall, blanket type answer is: Yes - Suzy is right. But if I was being a bit more pernickety and analytical, I think I would draw a distinction between her two terms.

'Race' = a way of talking about human genetic make-up. Not necessarily the most 'scientifically accurate' way (so I've heard - but I must admit, I don't really know what I'm on about) - but we know what you mean. Disliking people because of 'race': bad. (Right?)

'Religion' - seems to me that's something different. I am not totally sure that saying 'Disliking someone cos of their religion is WRONG' is very different from saying 'Disliking someone cos of their politics is WRONG'. (Analogy on two counts: 1) it's a system of beliefs - you can choose it, reflect on it; thus unlike 'race'. 2) It may be something you've grown up with - something inculcated early - hard to 'think beyond'.) Do we dislike people cos of their politics? It seems to me that sometimes, in some cases, we do. (cf. many instances across ILM / ILE.) So it seems to me possible that we might sometimes think it reasonable to dislike people cos of their religion.

That doesn't sound like a very pretty conclusion. Perhaps I wish I hadn't arrived at it. But I do see a logic there, and I do think that 'religion' and '"race"' are rather different kettles.

It may be that the word 'dislike' is the real culprit here. It may be that we can dislike people's religion, or politics, without disliking 'them'. Take George W Bush. I think I hate him. But do I? Maybe not. Maybe I am not qualified to hate him.

This sounds like the best way to save the claim that disliking people cos of their religion is wrong.

One of the reasons religion is a bit more complex than that, is that it is all too often tied up with ethnicity. I hope we can all agree that disliking someone based on the biologically bogus idea of race is wrong. Problem is, when a group that is perceived to be of race A is almost exactly congruent with the group following religion B, attacks on religion B have a tendency to be seem as attacks on race A. Hence irritating use of the term Islamophobia in leftish media as near synonym for anti-Pakistani/Bangladeshi racism.

Nick and Pete: apparently Ian Paisley was one of the first people to get RTE when it first transmitted into Belfast in 1981!

Suzy and the Pinefox: it is a difference of scale. I "tolerate" my mother listening to the Desmond Carrington show and she "tolerates" me listening to the Tim Westwood show, but this is hardly something that there will ever be genuine violence over (OK, some Tories wish that the BBC was all the former and not the latter - all mixed up with their nostalgic and false view of Britain - but you get my point). But I'm sure some of the rioters in Oldham and Bradford would have said rather grudgingly that they "tolerated" those from different cultural backgrounds a few years ago ... when it comes to multiculturalism I think "accept" is a far better word, but when it comes to taste I think "tolerate" is right.

I really do hope there will be a time when larger numbers of the population are able to conduct themselves in a civil manner without the threat of hellfire and damnation hanging over them, or allow themselves to be trodden upon in the hope that when they breathe their last, it's upgrade time. Until then, people's shame, reliance on myth to assert their relative superiority to another group with a different myth, and related issues will ensure they are stymied by those in power and will happily and stupidly offer themselves as cannon fodder everywhere, as throughout history.

My agnostic mum accepts my aesthetic and beliefs etc. will probably be different from what she'd like but teases me relentlessly if she doesn't like it, or tries to ask stymie questions. If she dishes out, I return in kind, also with affection. Don't mistake it for Utopia but it's definitely more acceptance than tolerance!

Why? Cos some friends of mine are about to descend on this city for a week of hard-assed partying/gigging/clubbing/poncey cocktail bar-ing/and so forth, despite the fact that none of them has a bloody clue what it's like there.

So. joking apart, have the years of Troubles rendered Belfast a nightlife no-fly zone? Or are there shitloads of (possibly literally) underground clubs and bars and stuff? Where to avoid?

Where should my mates go? They're an annoyingly mixed bunch (met aged 8 so lives have splintered off despite enduring friendship): some indie-ish, some girly glitzy clubber types, some trendy haircut style-mag slags, and one hardcore drum'n'bass loon.

Let's call them Nathan Barley, Carrie Bradshaw, Tim & Dawn from The Office, Wheels, Tim and Daisy from Spaced and, umm, Bernard Black...

Go ILX, make me proud.

I've just realised what an awesome/terrifying dinner party the above guest list would create...

now go!

There's probably enough to interest all your mates, but I can't really name any venues. Around the city hall there's a number of poncy cocktail bars - try The Apartment or the bar attached to the hotel Ten Sq. Irene and Nan's on Brunswick St. is reasonably interesting - never been on a Fri/Sat night though. Actually, the area around Brunswick St is (or was) full of bars, some of them hideous (avoid Bar Bacca).

For more traditional pubbage, there's the Crown on Great Victoria St. Guinness! Booths! The Craic! For indie-ish, The Limelight (Ormeau Ave) couldn't be more of a student indie disco if it tried, while the connected pub (Katy Daly's) is fine.

No idea about clubs, sorry. Too much of a corny indie fuck when I was growing up to even tolerate the idea of dancing. However the club scene in Belfast is now pretty well-regarded... there's a club called Milk (Tomb Street) which is probably quite glitzy, but they'd probably be better off picking up the Saturday Guardian and checking out the listings there. There's also a free listings sheet which you can pick up all over the student quarter - like in the cafes along the Stranmillis Road (which is a nice part of town).

Er hope that's enough to get your started...

this is very good news, ta. i wonder if there's an online version - can't seem to find anything at all up-to-date.

going up the weekend for a look, bushmills, causeway, titanic and all

The John Hewitt on Donegall Street is the best of the 'Cathedral Quarter' pubs. Get a pint or 7 of Yardsman (the ale & the lager are both great, on draught, and local). If you're driving go to Murlough Bay and/or White Park Bay on the North Antrim coast (looking out to Rathlin, Kintyre, and on really good day, Islay and Jura), Portrush East Strand is amazing also, the town is good for a Fish Supper.

sound, ta

didnt get beyond dinner at the barkin dog but a causeway wdyll is pending

been to derry but never been to belfast shamefully

If you're driving go to Murlough Bay and/or White Park Bay on the North Antrim coast (looking out to Rathlin, Kintyre, and on really good day, Islay and Jura)

― Alternative Ulsterbus, Friday, 3 April 2015 01:49 (two years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This was indeed astonishing stuff

I know I barely post any more but can't move to Belfast without seeking ilx advice.

I'll be in temp accommodation in South Belfast near Queen's with no rush to leave but will need to hunt around eventually. Is pretty much everywhere around Ormeau Park ok?

Bordering the park is obv the Ormeau Rd itself and Ravenhill, all these areas are ok and no real hassle...there is also the Ormeau embankment which is popular with joggers, running clubs etc. Along with the facilities in the park itself (tennis, football, Ozone complex etc.)

Only issues I can think of is just rowdy students and Annadale flats, which might not be the best place for sharing any Republican views.

Thanks MoT. How about behind the City Hospital, off the Donegall Road?

I want to go to Belfast and Derry but only hearing negative stuff off people about Belfast. Specifically re safety and not going to certain parts of town. This is just exaggeration, right? I really want to see the city as I’ve never been.

You'll be grand

i have visited belfast on numerous occasions and only been seriously wounded twice fwiw

just been there today. am unscathed if slightly annoyed that it was only a flying visit and didn't get to go to the pub.

found it a lovely place to visit tbh

good food

heard it's cracking tbh. one of my best mates works there a lot and says he's never had any bother. he goes up the falls road a lot to watch celtic games, but he's happy enough down the shankhill as well, he says, though he's seldom been there as he's no reason to go

If you're driving from Belfast to Derry go up up the coastal route. Lovely part of the world

yes

spectacular if day is at all clear

some of the roads are mental tho