Vermont Considers Lowering Drinking Age to 18By PAM BELLUCK
Published: April 13, 2005
MONTPELIER, Vt., April 7 - Last fall, Richard C. Marron, a Republican state representative, was reading a newspaper column by the recently retired president of Middlebury College, John M. McCardell Jr.
One of Mr. McCardell's targets was the drinking age, which in Vermont, and every other state, is 21. Advertisement
"The 21-year-old drinking age is bad social policy and terrible law," Mr. McCardell wrote, saying it had led to binge drinking by teenagers. "Our latter-day prohibitionists have driven drinking behind closed doors and underground."
Mr. Marron, a four-term legislator who is vice chairman of the appropriations committee, decided that the law needed changing, and he has introduced a bill to lower the drinking age to 18, setting off a debate about public safety, age discrimination and the rights of young people as well as whether it is possible to teach teenagers to drink responsibly.
"Now we have a legal age of 18 to do everything else, but you can't drink until you're 21," Mr. Marron said. "I'm not pushing it to the level of it being unconstitutional, but I do think it's a form of age discrimination. If we did something else, like said you couldn't use a public campsite until you're 21, we would have an equal-protection-of-laws issue."
Mr. Marron's bill is unlikely to pass, mainly because if it did, Vermont would lose $9.7 million in federal money for highway maintenance, grants available only if a state sets its drinking age at 21. And the state's public safety commissioner and health department, along with several legislators, argue that lowering the drinking age would simply worsen the problem of under-age drinking and drunken driving.
Still, 17 lawmakers have signed on as co-sponsors, and other legislators said they might be willing to consider such a bill if not for the loss of federal money. Even Gov. Jim Douglas, a Republican, might see some logic in the proposal if the federal highway money was not involved, said his spokesman, Jason Gibbs.
"Philosophically, it's difficult to reconcile the notion that you can enlist in the military, serve your country, go to war, but not go into your local pub and get a draft beer," Mr. Gibbs said.
While state health officials say that "a higher drinking age is safer," he added, the possibility that a lower drinking age could stem binge drinking is "certainly one that needs to be looked at very closely."
Mr. Marron, who says his ownership of a resort with a liquor license in Stowe, Vt., has no bearing on his support of the bill, said some teenagers drove to Canada, where the drinking age is 18.
States across the country raised the drinking age to 21 after the 1984 National Drinking Age Act tied that requirement to a percentage of federal highway money given to states.
In recent years, few legislative proposals have emerged to lower the drinking age, said Jonathan Adkins, a spokesman for the Governors Highway Safety Association, which, like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, strongly opposes such efforts. Vermont is simultaneously considering a bill to raise the cigarette-smoking age to 21, from 18.
Mr. Gibbs said the governor opposed the bill on smoking because 18 was the age of "pre-eminent personal responsibility."
The American Cancer Society has generally withheld support for such proposals, saying that there was not a lot of data on their effectiveness and that adoption might make cigarettes more of a forbidden fruit A survey of Vermont voters conducted by a state senator last month, before debate or hearings on the proposals, showed some support for lowering the drinking age (33 percent), but more for raising the smoking age (51 percent).
The forbidden-fruit argument is also made by advocates for lowering the drinking age.
"Before the age was increased, we had a very different environment," said Ronald D. Liebowitz, the current president of Middlebury College. "You had kids drinking beer and getting sick on beer, but you didn't have gross alcohol poisoning and binge drinking."
Mr. Liebowitz said many students "go off campus to private homes to drink and then, because this is a rural environment, they have to drive home."
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Alex Koroknay-Palicz, 23, the executive director of the National Youth Rights Association in Washington, has been campaigning for the bill on Vermont college campuses, saying it is a matter of civil rights and safety for teenagers.
"Instead of doing it in a controlled situation, going to a bar with a drink limit or something, they're doing it at keg parties in places that are harder to control," Mr. Koroknay-Palicz said. Advertisement
Statistics from the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration show that the number of drunken drivers under age 21 involved in fatal crashes decreased by 61 percent from 1982 to 1998. The agency also estimates that 22,798 lives were saved from 1975 to 2003 by higher-drinking-age laws.
And in Vermont, Kerry Sleeper, the public safety commissioner, said all fatal crashes involving alcohol dropped to 25 in 2002, from 50 in 1986, the year the drinking age was raised.
Mr. Sleeper and other opponents of the new bill acknowledge that it is not clear if the decrease in crashes can be attributed to the higher drinking age or to stepped-up enforcement, education and measures like lowering the illegal blood alcohol level to 0.08. But they say the higher age has helped.
Barbara Cimaglio, Vermont's deputy commissioner for alcohol and drug abuse programs, said brain research showed that 18-year-olds were not as responsible as 21-year-olds. Because many 18-year-olds are still in high school, Ms. Cimaglio said, lowering the age would make alcohol more available to 15- , 16- and 17-year-olds.
Representative Loren T. Shaw, Republican of Derby, bases his opposition on personal experience. "I started drinking when I was 15," said Mr. Shaw, 63, who said he stopped at 25. "All I cared about was booze, stock cars and women. I lost a lot of friends due to drunken driving."
Many legislators probably share the view of Representative Thomas S. DePoy, Republican of Rutland.
"I don't really know if the age is relevant," Mr. DePoy said. "I think it's just going to boil down to the mere fact that this state needs the transportation funds."
Katie Zezima contributed reporting from Boston for this article.
― Maria :D (Maria D.), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:19 (twenty years ago)
― jody the country girl doll (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)
― Maria :D (Maria D.), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:23 (twenty years ago)
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:45 (twenty years ago)
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)
I think there is some truth to the argument that lowering the age to 18 would make it much easier for 15-, 16- and 17-year-olds to get alcohol. But don't they manage somehow anyway?
Isn't alcohol a part of many kids' social life by the time they are 16 anyway?
― Maria :D (Maria D.), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)
― Maria :D (Maria D.), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)
― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)
― RS, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:17 (twenty years ago)
Alcohol is far more integrated into all aspects of life in Europe in contrast with the U.S. But, tellingly, so is public transportation. Every 16 y.o. in Germany or France doesn't have his own car.
Makes a difference.
Drinking and driving, while common obv. in the U.S. esp. among teens, deserves to be demonized.
― SeesItBothWays, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)
The Mexican laborer sips the pulque.
The Burmese farmer smokes the opium.
But we're AMERICANS, so we get blasted on toot, tequila, and smack. YEAH!
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)
Is that a Rev. Horton Heat song?
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)
One of the arguments people use is that in other countries, people start drinking at a much younger age and binge drinking is not such a problem. But in other countries, people don't have as much of a car culture. So that argument doesn't necessarily work here.
However, drinking in college is probably the safest place to get the binging out of your system... So maybe allowing drinking for 18-21 in a captive environment could work. (e.g. electrified barbed wire.)
xxxpost
― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)
Andy, beer wasn't even legal in Iceland until 1989. It only fortifies the original point, actually.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)
― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:37 (twenty years ago)
NO BEER??!! That must have been some pious Danish holdover, to keep the savages from quarreling.
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:48 (twenty years ago)
http://www.columbus.com.lb/columbus/lib/north.jpg
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)
"Vala... just give me the... keys... I'm fine, really..."
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:58 (twenty years ago)
― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 18:58 (twenty years ago)
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)
This looks promising, they look sort of toasted. One of them doesn't look so teutonic, though - are there immigrants in Reykjavik? Or eskimos or something?
― andy --, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:06 (twenty years ago)
― The Horse of Babylon's Butler (the pirate king), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)
You're not allowed to drink at all, even if you're dead.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:56 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)
― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)
― Maria (Maria), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)
I lived in Italy for three years, where there is NO minimum age for drinking alchohol. Also, the bars seem to be able to close whenever they want. One night I'd been in a bar for a while and was staggered to find it was 5am. Despite this no one in Italy gets drunk. In fact large numbers of people go to bars and don't drink at all, or they get one small beer and make it last the whole evening.
In Britain the legal age is 18 and most pubs have to stop serving at 11pm (although there are loads of places in London open later, and the law has just changed on this). However, I would guess that at least 90% of teenagers drink regularly and get drunk before they are 18, and alcohol is integrated into the British way of life inasmuch as we get ridiculously pissed all the time.
I'm not sure if this proves anything.
― The Horse of Babylon's Butler (the pirate king), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)
For example, In B.C., you can only buy alcohol -- anything, beer, wine, vodka, mud slide mix, absinthe, etc. -- in provincial liquor stores, and none of them will stay open past 9pm. And I think 9pm is only for Friday nights. (Of course, bars have license to serve alcohol past that, but those are bars.) They are closed on Sundays. Now that's British Columbia. Other provinces may be more lenient or not.
Point being: liquor purchase times, even in the most baptist counties in the southern states (or the Northwest, haha), are more relaxed than Canadian liquor purchase times, generally speaking.
Washington is about to make a BIG step soon. We will soon be able to purchase hard liquor on *gasp* Sundays! "AW LOOK AT THE WITTLE STATE TRY TO WALK, OH KOOCHY KOO!"
My point being: countries with lenient drinking ages usually have stringent alcohol purchase times, or if they don't, the country isn't riddled with potential alcohol-induced disasters waiting to happen. The U.S. and Canada are far more car countries than the rest of the Western countries.. hence.
(My cousin in Victoria talks about how drunk driving is quasi legal in the northern parts of Vancouver Island because many small towns on the island have no police! People in bars just openly talk about driving drunk -- proudly)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)
It should be 18, and the DRIVING age should be raised to 20.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:22 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:23 (twenty years ago)
nothing remotely like on the scale of in England, either in terms of how drunk (people just don't drink so much in one go) or in terms of how many people - I met plenty of middle-aged people who had never been drunk in their lives. There is no word in Italian for 'hangover', because the concept doesn't exist.
― The Horse of Babylon's Butler (the pirate king), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:33 (twenty years ago)
crosspost
― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:40 (twenty years ago)
I love Australia. Nation of pissheads. Seriously, its a bit of a problem here.
― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:19 (twenty years ago)
The kids will not be allowed to repeat his mistakes!
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:20 (twenty years ago)
Anyway, according to Wikipedia, Italy's minimum drinking age is 16, although clearly a lack of enforcement may affect things on the ground...
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 14 April 2005 00:29 (twenty years ago)
Before the Feds used highway funds to coerce the states into a uniform drinking age of 21, it was a state-by-state thing. I seem to remember a few years ago Louisiana making noises about lowering the drinking age to 18. (Tourism concerns? How could you say such a thing!)
― j.lu (j.lu), Thursday, 14 April 2005 01:48 (twenty years ago)
― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 14 April 2005 03:06 (twenty years ago)
― shookout (shookout), Thursday, 14 April 2005 03:59 (twenty years ago)
― Open your eyes; you can fly! (ex machina), Thursday, 14 April 2005 04:11 (twenty years ago)
― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Thursday, 14 April 2005 04:15 (twenty years ago)
― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Thursday, 14 April 2005 04:16 (twenty years ago)
― shookout (shookout), Thursday, 14 April 2005 04:33 (twenty years ago)
― Maria (Maria), Thursday, 14 April 2005 04:52 (twenty years ago)
― Robin Goad (rgoad), Thursday, 14 April 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Thursday, 14 April 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)
(i'm kidding guys!! ;))
― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 14 April 2005 09:50 (twenty years ago)
do 18 yr old kids in Europe really go home in the morning to tell their mum "cor mum i got fucking wasted last night man! it was immense!"?>??!?
― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 14 April 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)
― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 14 April 2005 09:54 (twenty years ago)
Welcome to the UK! 15 is the de facto drinking age here, unless there have ben a lot of crackdowns since I was a teenager. I got carded 4 times before my 18th birthday; I must have bought booze over 100 times.
There is no word in Italian for 'hangover'
"Ho alzato troppo il gomito" is a recognised phrase ("I raised my elbow too much"). It sounds a bit old-fashioned, though.
― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 14 April 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)
― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 14 April 2005 10:40 (twenty years ago)
― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 14 April 2005 10:42 (twenty years ago)
― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Thursday, 14 April 2005 10:50 (twenty years ago)
― teeny (teeny), Thursday, 14 April 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)
― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 14 April 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)
If they're anything like my daughter, who's been amusing me with tales of drink-fuelled shennanigans in the clubs and bars of Leeds since she was 14, then yes.
Mind you, by the time she hit 18 it was all a bit been-there-done-that and a quiet evening doing her cross-stitch became more appealing.
― chris j (chris j), Thursday, 14 April 2005 22:43 (twenty years ago)
― Allyce Griffiths, Thursday, 20 April 2006 08:23 (nineteen years ago)
Wow! I'm speechless, you guys are even more fucked-up than I thought!
― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Thursday, 20 April 2006 10:47 (nineteen years ago)
― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 20 April 2006 10:48 (nineteen years ago)
― ????, Thursday, 20 April 2006 10:52 (nineteen years ago)
― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 20 April 2006 10:54 (nineteen years ago)