A few weeks ago, the price of oil ratcheted above fifty-five dollars a barrel, which is about twenty dollars a barrel more than a year ago. The next day, the oil story was buried on page six of the New York Times business section. Apparently, the price of oil is not considered significant news, even when it goes up five bucks a barrel in the span of ten days. That same day, the stock market shot up more than a hundred points because, CNN said, government data showed no signs of inflation. Note to clueless nation: Call planet Earth.
Carl Jung, one of the fathers of psychology, famously remarked that "people cannot stand too much reality." What you're about to read may challenge your assumptions about the kind of world we live in, and especially the kind of world into which events are propelling us. We are in for a rough ride through uncharted territory.
It has been very hard for Americans -- lost in dark raptures of nonstop infotainment, recreational shopping and compulsive motoring -- to make sense of the gathering forces that will fundamentally alter the terms of everyday life in our technological society. Even after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, America is still sleepwalking into the future. I call this coming time the Long Emergency.
Most immediately we face the end of the cheap-fossil-fuel era. It is no exaggeration to state that reliable supplies of cheap oil and natural gas underlie everything we identify as the necessities of modern life -- not to mention all of its comforts and luxuries: central heating, air conditioning, cars, airplanes, electric lights, inexpensive clothing, recorded music, movies, hip-replacement surgery, national defense -- you name it.
The few Americans who are even aware that there is a gathering global-energy predicament usually misunderstand the core of the argument. That argument states that we don't have to run out of oil to start having severe problems with industrial civilization and its dependent systems. We only have to slip over the all-time production peak and begin a slide down the arc of steady depletion.
The term "global oil-production peak" means that a turning point will come when the world produces the most oil it will ever produce in a given year and, after that, yearly production will inexorably decline. It is usually represented graphically in a bell curve. The peak is the top of the curve, the halfway point of the world's all-time total endowment, meaning half the world's oil will be left. That seems like a lot of oil, and it is, but there's a big catch: It's the half that is much more difficult to extract, far more costly to get, of much poorer quality and located mostly in places where the people hate us. A substantial amount of it will never be extracted.
The United States passed its own oil peak -- about 11 million barrels a day -- in 1970, and since then production has dropped steadily. In 2004 it ran just above 5 million barrels a day (we get a tad more from natural-gas condensates). Yet we consume roughly 20 million barrels a day now. That means we have to import about two-thirds of our oil, and the ratio will continue to worsen.
The U.S. peak in 1970 brought on a portentous change in geoeconomic power. Within a few years, foreign producers, chiefly OPEC, were setting the price of oil, and this in turn led to the oil crises of the 1970s. In response, frantic development of non-OPEC oil, especially the North Sea fields of England and Norway, essentially saved the West's ass for about two decades. Since 1999, these fields have entered depletion. Meanwhile, worldwide discovery of new oil has steadily declined to insignificant levels in 2003 and 2004.
Some "cornucopians" claim that the Earth has something like a creamy nougat center of "abiotic" oil that will naturally replenish the great oil fields of the world. The facts speak differently. There has been no replacement whatsoever of oil already extracted from the fields of America or any other place.
Now we are faced with the global oil-production peak. The best estimates of when this will actually happen have been somewhere between now and 2010. In 2004, however, after demand from burgeoning China and India shot up, and revelations that Shell Oil wildly misstated its reserves, and Saudi Arabia proved incapable of goosing up its production despite promises to do so, the most knowledgeable experts revised their predictions and now concur that 2005 is apt to be the year of all-time global peak production.
It will change everything about how we live.
To aggravate matters, American natural-gas production is also declining, at five percent a year, despite frenetic new drilling, and with the potential of much steeper declines ahead. Because of the oil crises of the 1970s, the nuclear-plant disasters at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and the acid-rain problem, the U.S. chose to make gas its first choice for electric-power generation. The result was that just about every power plant built after 1980 has to run on gas. Half the homes in America are heated with gas. To further complicate matters, gas isn't easy to import. Here in North America, it is distributed through a vast pipeline network. Gas imported from overseas would have to be compressed at minus-260 degrees Fahrenheit in pressurized tanker ships and unloaded (re-gasified) at special terminals, of which few exist in America. Moreover, the first attempts to site new terminals have met furious opposition because they are such ripe targets for terrorism.
Some other things about the global energy predicament are poorly understood by the public and even our leaders. This is going to be a permanent energy crisis, and these energy problems will synergize with the disruptions of climate change, epidemic disease and population overshoot to produce higher orders of trouble.
We will have to accommodate ourselves to fundamentally changed conditions.
No combination of alternative fuels will allow us to run American life the way we have been used to running it, or even a substantial fraction of it. The wonders of steady technological progress achieved through the reign of cheap oil have lulled us into a kind of Jiminy Cricket syndrome, leading many Americans to believe that anything we wish for hard enough will come true. These days, even people who ought to know better are wishing ardently for a seamless transition from fossil fuels to their putative replacements.
The widely touted "hydrogen economy" is a particularly cruel hoax. We are not going to replace the U.S. automobile and truck fleet with vehicles run on fuel cells. For one thing, the current generation of fuel cells is largely designed to run on hydrogen obtained from natural gas. The other way to get hydrogen in the quantities wished for would be electrolysis of water using power from hundreds of nuclear plants. Apart from the dim prospect of our building that many nuclear plants soon enough, there are also numerous severe problems with hydrogen's nature as an element that present forbidding obstacles to its use as a replacement for oil and gas, especially in storage and transport.
Wishful notions about rescuing our way of life with "renewables" are also unrealistic. Solar-electric systems and wind turbines face not only the enormous problem of scale but the fact that the components require substantial amounts of energy to manufacture and the probability that they can't be manufactured at all without the underlying support platform of a fossil-fuel economy. We will surely use solar and wind technology to generate some electricity for a period ahead but probably at a very local and small scale.
Virtually all "biomass" schemes for using plants to create liquid fuels cannot be scaled up to even a fraction of the level at which things are currently run. What's more, these schemes are predicated on using oil and gas "inputs" (fertilizers, weed-killers) to grow the biomass crops that would be converted into ethanol or bio-diesel fuels. This is a net energy loser -- you might as well just burn the inputs and not bother with the biomass products. Proposals to distill trash and waste into oil by means of thermal depolymerization depend on the huge waste stream produced by a cheap oil and gas economy in the first place.
Coal is far less versatile than oil and gas, extant in less abundant supplies than many people assume and fraught with huge ecological drawbacks -- as a contributor to greenhouse "global warming" gases and many health and toxicity issues ranging from widespread mercury poisoning to acid rain. You can make synthetic oil from coal, but the only time this was tried on a large scale was by the Nazis under wartime conditions, using impressive amounts of slave labor.
If we wish to keep the lights on in America after 2020, we may indeed have to resort to nuclear power, with all its practical problems and eco-conundrums. Under optimal conditions, it could take ten years to get a new generation of nuclear power plants into operation, and the price may be beyond our means. Uranium is also a resource in finite supply. We are no closer to the more difficult project of atomic fusion, by the way, than we were in the 1970s.
The upshot of all this is that we are entering a historical period of potentially great instability, turbulence and hardship. Obviously, geopolitical maneuvering around the world's richest energy regions has already led to war and promises more international military conflict. Since the Middle East contains two-thirds of the world's remaining oil supplies, the U.S. has attempted desperately to stabilize the region by, in effect, opening a big police station in Iraq. The intent was not just to secure Iraq's oil but to modify and influence the behavior of neighboring states around the Persian Gulf, especially Iran and Saudi Arabia. The results have been far from entirely positive, and our future prospects in that part of the world are not something we can feel altogether confident about.
And then there is the issue of China, which, in 2004, became the world's second-greatest consumer of oil, surpassing Japan. China's surging industrial growth has made it increasingly dependent on the imports we are counting on. If China wanted to, it could easily walk into some of these places -- the Middle East, former Soviet republics in central Asia -- and extend its hegemony by force. Is America prepared to contest for this oil in an Asian land war with the Chinese army? I doubt it. Nor can the U.S. military occupy regions of the Eastern Hemisphere indefinitely, or hope to secure either the terrain or the oil infrastructure of one distant, unfriendly country after another. A likely scenario is that the U.S. could exhaust and bankrupt itself trying to do this, and be forced to withdraw back into our own hemisphere, having lost access to most of the world's remaining oil in the process.
We know that our national leaders are hardly uninformed about this predicament. President George W. Bush has been briefed on the dangers of the oil-peak situation as long ago as before the 2000 election and repeatedly since then. In March, the Department of Energy released a report that officially acknowledges for the first time that peak oil is for real and states plainly that "the world has never faced a problem like this. Without massive mitigation more than a decade before the fact, the problem will be pervasive and will not be temporary."
Most of all, the Long Emergency will require us to make other arrangements for the way we live in the United States. America is in a special predicament due to a set of unfortunate choices we made as a society in the twentieth century. Perhaps the worst was to let our towns and cities rot away and to replace them with suburbia, which had the additional side effect of trashing a lot of the best farmland in America. Suburbia will come to be regarded as the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world. It has a tragic destiny. The psychology of previous investment suggests that we will defend our drive-in utopia long after it has become a terrible liability.
Before long, the suburbs will fail us in practical terms. We made the ongoing development of housing subdivisions, highway strips, fried-food shacks and shopping malls the basis of our economy, and when we have to stop making more of those things, the bottom will fall out.
The circumstances of the Long Emergency will require us to downscale and re-scale virtually everything we do and how we do it, from the kind of communities we physically inhabit to the way we grow our food to the way we work and trade the products of our work. Our lives will become profoundly and intensely local. Daily life will be far less about mobility and much more about staying where you are. Anything organized on the large scale, whether it is government or a corporate business enterprise such as Wal-Mart, will wither as the cheap energy props that support bigness fall away. The turbulence of the Long Emergency will produce a lot of economic losers, and many of these will be members of an angry and aggrieved former middle class.
Food production is going to be an enormous problem in the Long Emergency. As industrial agriculture fails due to a scarcity of oil- and gas-based inputs, we will certainly have to grow more of our food closer to where we live, and do it on a smaller scale. The American economy of the mid-twenty-first century may actually center on agriculture, not information, not high tech, not "services" like real estate sales or hawking cheeseburgers to tourists. Farming. This is no doubt a startling, radical idea, and it raises extremely difficult questions about the reallocation of land and the nature of work. The relentless subdividing of land in the late twentieth century has destroyed the contiguity and integrity of the rural landscape in most places. The process of readjustment is apt to be disorderly and improvisational. Food production will necessarily be much more labor-intensive than it has been for decades. We can anticipate the re-formation of a native-born American farm-laboring class. It will be composed largely of the aforementioned economic losers who had to relinquish their grip on the American dream. These masses of disentitled people may enter into quasi-feudal social relations with those who own land in exchange for food and physical security. But their sense of grievance will remain fresh, and if mistreated they may simply seize that land.
The way that commerce is currently organized in America will not survive far into the Long Emergency. Wal-Mart's "warehouse on wheels" won't be such a bargain in a non-cheap-oil economy. The national chain stores' 12,000-mile manufacturing supply lines could easily be interrupted by military contests over oil and by internal conflict in the nations that have been supplying us with ultra-cheap manufactured goods, because they, too, will be struggling with similar issues of energy famine and all the disorders that go with it.
As these things occur, America will have to make other arrangements for the manufacture, distribution and sale of ordinary goods. They will probably be made on a "cottage industry" basis rather than the factory system we once had, since the scale of available energy will be much lower -- and we are not going to replay the twentieth century. Tens of thousands of the common products we enjoy today, from paints to pharmaceuticals, are made out of oil. They will become increasingly scarce or unavailable. The selling of things will have to be reorganized at the local scale. It will have to be based on moving merchandise shorter distances. It is almost certain to result in higher costs for the things we buy and far fewer choices.
The automobile will be a diminished presence in our lives, to say the least. With gasoline in short supply, not to mention tax revenue, our roads will surely suffer. The interstate highway system is more delicate than the public realizes. If the "level of service" (as traffic engineers call it) is not maintained to the highest degree, problems multiply and escalate quickly. The system does not tolerate partial failure. The interstates are either in excellent condition, or they quickly fall apart.
America today has a railroad system that the Bulgarians would be ashamed of. Neither of the two major presidential candidates in 2004 mentioned railroads, but if we don't refurbish our rail system, then there may be no long-range travel or transport of goods at all a few decades from now. The commercial aviation industry, already on its knees financially, is likely to vanish. The sheer cost of maintaining gigantic airports may not justify the operation of a much-reduced air-travel fleet. Railroads are far more energy efficient than cars, trucks or airplanes, and they can be run on anything from wood to electricity. The rail-bed infrastructure is also far more economical to maintain than our highway network.
The successful regions in the twenty-first century will be the ones surrounded by viable farming hinterlands that can reconstitute locally sustainable economies on an armature of civic cohesion. Small towns and smaller cities have better prospects than the big cities, which will probably have to contract substantially. The process will be painful and tumultuous. In many American cities, such as Cleveland, Detroit and St. Louis, that process is already well advanced. Others have further to fall. New York and Chicago face extraordinary difficulties, being oversupplied with gigantic buildings out of scale with the reality of declining energy supplies. Their former agricultural hinterlands have long been paved over. They will be encysted in a surrounding fabric of necrotic suburbia that will only amplify and reinforce the cities' problems. Still, our cities occupy important sites. Some kind of urban entities will exist where they are in the future, but probably not the colossi of twentieth-century industrialism.
Some regions of the country will do better than others in the Long Emergency. The Southwest will suffer in proportion to the degree that it prospered during the cheap-oil blowout of the late twentieth century. I predict that Sunbelt states like Arizona and Nevada will become significantly depopulated, since the region will be short of water as well as gasoline and natural gas. Imagine Phoenix without cheap air conditioning.
I'm not optimistic about the Southeast, either, for different reasons. I think it will be subject to substantial levels of violence as the grievances of the formerly middle class boil over and collide with the delusions of Pentecostal Christian extremism. The latent encoded behavior of Southern culture includes an outsized notion of individualism and the belief that firearms ought to be used in the defense of it. This is a poor recipe for civic cohesion.
The Mountain States and Great Plains will face an array of problems, from poor farming potential to water shortages to population loss. The Pacific Northwest, New England and the Upper Midwest have somewhat better prospects. I regard them as less likely to fall into lawlessness, anarchy or despotism and more likely to salvage the bits and pieces of our best social traditions and keep them in operation at some level.
These are daunting and even dreadful prospects. The Long Emergency is going to be a tremendous trauma for the human race. We will not believe that this is happening to us, that 200 years of modernity can be brought to its knees by a world-wide power shortage. The survivors will have to cultivate a religion of hope -- that is, a deep and comprehensive belief that humanity is worth carrying on. If there is any positive side to stark changes coming our way, it may be in the benefits of close communal relations, of having to really work intimately (and physically) with our neighbors, to be part of an enterprise that really matters and to be fully engaged in meaningful social enactments instead of being merely entertained to avoid boredom. Years from now, when we hear singing at all, we will hear ourselves, and we will sing with our whole hearts.
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:40 (twenty years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)
― phil-two (phil-two), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:46 (twenty years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)
― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)
― kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:20 (twenty years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)
EDIT: Sorry Tracer, I forgot about that thread...it would've been relevant there although I do think this article semi-deserved its own thread.
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)
Finally!
This may be the first useful Rolling Stone article ever written in about... well, since I knew there was a magazine called Rolling Stone.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)
The Eyesore Of The Month page is ROFL worthy.. with a very black tongue in cheek, granted.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:39 (twenty years ago)
xpost
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:40 (twenty years ago)
The Grand Pedestrian Journey to Catch the Train from Albany to New York City
haha "This way to trains. . . or is it the janitor's broom closet?"
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)
― RS, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)
geez, thanks for pointing that one out in such a way.
anyhoo, at least I made the escape from Ann Arbor to Portland at the right time.
i guess we'll find out who runs BarterTown now...
― kingfish, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)
If there is any positive side to stark changes coming our way, it may be in the benefits of close communal relations, of having to really work intimately (and physically) with our neighbors, to be part of an enterprise that really matters and to be fully engaged in meaningful social enactments instead of being merely entertained to avoid boredom
Frankly it all sounds like the Oneida colony to me.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:50 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:55 (twenty years ago)
http://www2.exxonmobil.com/corporate/Campaign/Campaign_brochures_energychallenge.asphttp://www.bp.com/genericsection.do?categoryId=4445&contentId=7005392http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=royal-en&FC3=/royal-en/html/iwgen/environment_and_society/dir_environment_and_society.html&FC2=/royal-en/html/iwgen/environment_and_society/zzz_lhn.html
Two energy companies with website sections called "Environment and Society"; what are the odds?
Thank God I won't get a chance to see this thread develop...off to Seattle real soon!
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:57 (twenty years ago)
― kingfish, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)
My moment of environmental dread/'we all gonna die' was early 1992. I remember it very well and it's not a state of mind I wish to return to. I have my own definite thoughts about all this but I am not giving into despair -- not yet, at least. For now, I think it's increasingly more important to figure out ways to leave the least amount of impact on the world in terms of energy use -- even small steps help.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)
Cruise is a dedicated student of the action-hero disciplines: He wants to gain competence, he says, at rock-climbing and flying; he is loath to use a stunt double, preferring instead to spend months training in swordplay, Nascar racing and bike-riding for films. As he talks about his adventuring skills, one gets the feeling that in the event of an apocalypse, an action hero would have a more likely chance of survival than most ordinary folk.
Cruise considers the idea. In fact, there's nothing that you can say that he won't seriously consider. He pays attention, almost to a fault. "I can live out in the woods," he begins. "I would eat bugs. I can use a sword and a pistol and stuff."
Cruise, ultimately, is a survivor. "There's a confidence that comes from knowing you can work, no matter what," he says. "I can deliver papers. I can take care of myself."
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)
― RS, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:10 (twenty years ago)
It's also correct to point out that shortages of oil cause wrenching economic dislocations - and once we are past peak oil production we shall be in a chronic (although not yet acute) shortage. The market-based solution will be to ratchet up oil prices until demand slackens. The USA will be especially vulnerable to this fact.
It is also correct to point out that the alternatives to oil will never be able to fully compensate for the loss of oil, because they all have far less favorable energy returns for energy invested.
It really is a rather reasonable analysis.
It skirts the issue of the death toll for good reason. First, the highest toll will proabably be confined to non-industrial nations, becasue they have the least distance to travel before people start to die. Also, it's problematic since there isn't any good way to predict it, it is better left nebulous. But there will be a death toll.
For most of us westerners, we'll just be poorer, but we'll survive just fine. Think of Britain in the decade 1945-55. That's probably what to expect in about 20 years. (Factor in that I am a well-known gloom artist.)
― Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:14 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)
― RS, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)
― milton parker (Jon L), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)
― RS, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:23 (twenty years ago)
Eyesore Of The Month June 1999 -- Hannibal Lecter Elementary in Las Vegas, NV
Eyesore Of The Month July 1998 -- Denver Art Museum
As much as I like the Seattle Public Library, Kunstler gives it the Eyesore treatment, and it is pretty funny.
The one thing this feature did: it makes me never want to visit Saratoga Springs, NY ever in my life.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)
It skirts the issue of the death toll for good reason. First, the highest toll will proabably be confined to non-industrial nations, becasue they have the least distance to travel before people start to die. Also, it's problematic since there isn't any good way to predict it, it is better left nebulous. But there will be a death toll.I was wondering about that...
in the coming energy armageddon there will be only one thread on the Internet and everyone will be crossposting with each other.Ahh, of course! *glee*
It is also correct to point out that the alternatives to oil will never be able to fully compensate for the loss of oil, because they all have far less favorable energy returns for energy invested.No alcohol-powered cars then?
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:43 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)
Hey! I expected you to pay homage at the house where I lived for three years.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:53 (twenty years ago)
yeah, exactly. there's not enough accounting for techinical innovation along the way(and how those who call the shots now will be doing whatever they can to call the shots tomorrow, too).
― kingfish, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:00 (twenty years ago)
x-post
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)
well, no, not exactly. Solar cells, for example, have seen an exponential growth in efficiency over the last few years, and look like they will continue to do so. They're getting cheaper and more powerful. They're becoming more popular, and providing more energy that is not specifically oil-based. That kind of continued technological innovation could easily impact Kunstler's scenario. See also advances in wind and tidal power, the aforementioned engines that run on garbage, microturbines, solar panels in orbit, etc. there are a lot of alternatives.
On the one hand I would almost welcome the collapse and a reversion to self-sufficient, grassroots collectives. On the other hand I'd like to see that transition occur in the most comfortable and most egalitarian way possible - I guess what I'm hoping for is a corporate collapse coinciding with smaller collectives stepping in with these other alternatives, providing for a smoother transition than Kunstler's apocalypic scenario.
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:16 (twenty years ago)
I do enjoy going to meetings and hearing about various comanies scrambling to come up with ways to meet the Kyoto Protocols.
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:20 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:22 (twenty years ago)
I almost read "comanies" as "comrades."
― Ian Riese-Moraine. To Hell with you and your gradual evolution! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:24 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:24 (twenty years ago)
downward curve in terms of crude oil, yes. but other tech IS coming along, and efforts for things like urban greenspace. sure, much of it is underfunded and ebryonic now, but with time and when people start getting panicky, things will change. humans have an ability to adapt to whatever shit comes along(for example, the first ep of Star Trek). of course, they also have the habit of fucking over other along the way.
still, i remain hopeful that no matter how shitty things get in the next half-century, there will always be beer.
― kingfish, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:35 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 13 April 2005 23:35 (twenty years ago)
I think I will, though conceivably when the earthquake hits, they might not have much juice to broadcast with either.
― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)
m.
― msp (mspa), Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:25 (twenty years ago)
― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:31 (twenty years ago)
― msp (mspa), Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)
― AaronK (AaronK), Thursday, 14 April 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Tuesday, 17 May 2005 01:10 (twenty years ago)
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 04:55 (twenty years ago)
-- Pleasant Plains /// (pleasant.plain...), April 14th, 2005.
Sorry, I can't help but feel that the author is ALSO saying "Bring it On," here. Is a lot of what he's saying true? Sure. But his conclusion, in which things get so rough that we are forced to revert back to a lovely agrarian society in which the dispossessed will probably rise up and take land from the rich and we'll all sing songs together makes it sound a bit to much like he's a true believer praying for the armegeddon to come.
― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 05:21 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 05:22 (twenty years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 05:32 (twenty years ago)
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 05:39 (twenty years ago)
-- Tracer Hand (tracerhan...), May 17th, 2005.
The problem is I'm not sure which is at the root of Kunstler's vision.
― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 05:41 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 05:43 (twenty years ago)
Someone just give me aids on how to convert something on DVD to a streaming video file, and I'll HAPPILY get it going.
The presentation is actually geared more towards architecture, why it sucks in the U.S. today, why we need better general civil design, etc., and talks less about The Long Emergency than in the Rolling Stone article, although it's a major theme in his talk. Kunstler is very bitter and doomsday, but he's also quite funny and charismatic, too.
― donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)
― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 16:55 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)
― milton parker (Jon L), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 22:32 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)
― g e o f f (gcannon), Tuesday, 17 May 2005 22:42 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 01:12 (twenty years ago)
The "waiting list" is comparatively small. Hybrid cars have been in development for almost ten years, and many models (SUVs like the Lexus, the Ford, and others for example) have seen repeated delays for a myriad of reasons. The technology is still unreliable, at least in the context of the current market and the investment required to mass produce. You don't hear much talk about battery life and replacement cost, for example, because it's a huge cost concern not only for manufacturing but also in marketing the technology.
― don weiner, Wednesday, 18 May 2005 01:33 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 01:34 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 02:09 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 02:12 (twenty years ago)
Granted, a massive hybrid car switch would do a lot more good. And, if it can be worked out that hybrid cars can be sold at a competitive price to regular cars, then there you go. That may not be the case now.. but once other factors give in i.e. the price of petroleum based oil becomes astronomically high, then you might see a lot of "Hmmmmm"-ing going on.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 02:29 (twenty years ago)
also, the kicker about that Kunstler article is that he really does seem to be enjoying this in a misanthropic way; as i mentioned before, mentioning oil shale processing in relation to the Nazis & slave labor is him tipping his hand.
still, despite all his wrongheadedness about a lot of it, he got this printed in Rolling Stone, and a LOT of people read it(since it was reposted here, livejournal, etc). he put the concept of "peak oil" out there for folks to be aware of, so that the next time it's mentioned(hopefully by somebody with a far better sense of tact & persuasion), it won't seem like some sorta foreign unheard-of idea.
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 03:46 (twenty years ago)
Anyway, I wouldn't buy it only for the gas savings. As long as I still have a job where I have to drive, I'd like to do my part in reducing demand however I can.
― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 13:10 (twenty years ago)
Point being, individual drivers may not see the difference in car price as worthwhile, but the effect that using 1/2 the amount of oil multiplied by (?) 50 million drivers means that transportation costs in general will at least hold steady, if not decrease .. therefore general inflation on transported goods, as well as travel costs which account for a large part of many local economies, will stay low - and that's where the benefits of hybrid cars pay off.
― diedre mousedropping and a quarter (Dave225), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)
― diedre mousedropping and a quarter (Dave225), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)
Vehicles in the table to the right may be eligible for a "clean fuel" deduction of $2,000 for those placed in service by the end of 2005 or $500 for those put in use during 2006.
Vehicles purchased after 2006 will not be eligible for a deduction under current legislation. If you purchased the vehicle before 2005, you can claim the deduction by filing an amended tax return for the tax year in which the vehicle was purchased. Vehicle Make & Model Model YearsFord Escape Hybrid 2005Honda Accord Hybrid 2005Honda Civic Hybrid 2003-2005Honda Insight 2000-2005Toyota Prius 2001-2005* Vehicles approved by IRS as of February 10, 2005. Other hybrids may be approved at a later date.
For your vehicle to qualify, the following requirements must also be met:
* You must purchase the vehicle new and for your own use, not for resale. * You must drive it mostly in the United States. * The vehicle must meet all federal and state emissions requirements. * Government agencies, tax exempt organizations, and foreign entities are not eligible.
Other requirements may also apply. If any of these conditions change within 3 years of purchase, you may have to return some of the money saved by the deduction.
― diedre mousedropping and a quarter (Dave225), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)
― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 18 May 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=6117572
Police say the thief drilled a hole into the gas tanks of two SUVs and stole the gas. The first time it was a Chevy Silverado pick up truck, the second hit was on a Jeep Liberty SUV - that time the thief got scared off and left a bucket of gas just sitting there.
There have been a total of 10 reports of gas thefts in San Jose. Police in Daly City are just shaking their heads - they can't believe this has happened. They say it's a wonder that the thief or thieves didn't kill themselves because using drills around gas is not the safest idea.
― Milton Parker, Friday, 2 May 2008 20:37 (seventeen years ago)
I can't help but assume some of the current price run-up is speculation. Even with rising demand it hardly makes sense to have oil more than double in three years.
― Hurting 2, Friday, 2 May 2008 22:57 (seventeen years ago)
rising demand + stagnant production
― Z S, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:02 (seventeen years ago)
+hedging that production is stagnant or falling.
― Ed, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:05 (seventeen years ago)
http://omrpublic.iea.org/DashBoard/demand.gif
― Hurting 2, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:07 (seventeen years ago)
I mean maybe my economic understanding is deficient, but this doesn't look like a significant enough demand increase to justify the price increase.
Another issue that is rarely mentioned is development in oil exporting nations. When oil consumption rises in countries that export oil, obviously the amount of oil available for sale is decreased (which kind of leads to a fucked up motivation to keep oil exporting developing countries from developing too quickly, but anyway).
So the difficulty with oil supply keeping up with world demand is influenced by at least three major factors: 1) production has to be expanded to keep up with the overall increase in world demand, 2)production has to be expanded to make up for the drop in output in "giant" oil fields (peak oil lol), and 3)production has to be expanded to make up for the increasing amounts of oil that people in oil exporting countries are consuming.
― Z S, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:09 (seventeen years ago)
Even with rising demand it hardly makes sense to have oil more than double in three years.
Well there is this one entire country that used to produce a quite a lot of it that's fallen into some disarray.
But yeah even with that it sure as seems like OPEC would want to ramp up production right now and keep us below $120 a barrel instead of having everybody chattering about electric cars and ethanol. It's over. The price is a lagging indicator if we hit peak oil last summer.
― El Tomboto, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:09 (seventeen years ago)
I'm not sure OPEC can ramp up their production, at least not at a sustainable level. Cue argument about Matthew Simmons' Twilight in the Desert here (about peak oil and Saudi Arabia).
― Z S, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:16 (seventeen years ago)
that's what I meant. they would love to, but they can't, not in any way that would make prices go down.
― El Tomboto, Friday, 2 May 2008 23:19 (seventeen years ago)
doesn't look like a significant enough demand increase to justify the price increase.
You might think so, but you are not factoring in the magic of speculation in an unrestricted market, also the lack of competition from comparably priced alternatives.
If there were lower-priced substitutes for petroleum readily available, the increase from a bit of added demand wouldn't be more than a blip. Consumers would flip to the lower-priced alternative as soon as oil tried to raise its price. But the alternatives still have a significant cost differential and also require a lot of capitalization and infrastructure before they can compete efficiently.
Given the sad lack of effective alternatives to oil, speculators can easily add artificial 'demand' by bidding up the price of a scarce resource and being assured of a market when they sell again into a structurally-guaranteed seller's market. The only good short-term counter-strategy to this speculative price-gouging is to reduce overall demand through conservation until supplies again exceed demand. Otherwise, we are good and fucked in terms of cost.
― Aimless, Saturday, 3 May 2008 01:19 (seventeen years ago)
reduce overall demand through conservation
Unfortunately, political feasibility of this = 0.
"Vote for me in November, and I'll limit your use of energy!"
(Actually, I'd vote for someone with that platform, but anyways)
― Z S, Saturday, 3 May 2008 01:33 (seventeen years ago)
We need Jimmy Carter and his cardigan back on TV.
― Z S, Saturday, 3 May 2008 01:34 (seventeen years ago)