Born-again Christians

So I don't think that you can really try to categorise and go through epiphany experiences and judge superficially what is real and what are "social" (what do you mean? cultish brainwashings? people who just want to go to church for coffee hour and chat?) reasons.

However, like Kate's Mum, my own parents underwent a powerful conversion experience in the mid-60s that radically altered the rest of their lives. Impressed by an appearance on the David Frost show they attended a telecast of Billy Graham's Earls Court rallies at Queens Hall, Leeds. My atheist Father 'went forward', prayed with a tall Nigerian Christian, and experienced what he described as a 'strange warming of the heart'. He was never the same man. My Mother's experience, occasional C.of E, was less dramatic but she is none the less convinced 'something significant happened, where there was once darkness there was light'. They talk of being 'saved' and have been genuine and very devout evangelical Christians ever since. Now I have my own theories as to why they then, there felt this sudden attraction to religion, but I can't deny the sincerity of their belief that they underwent a profound spiritual experience

This is very unconductive to the drinking enviroment. I am going to have to give them a piece of my mind about what I feel about faux country.
Momus, you described my campus better then you could have known.

http://www.clubericacampbell.com

I'm impressed that she knows A LOT is not one word. Good for her.

still showing tits

A little décolletage is not necessarily contrary to Scripture, the Vatican's head astronomer said recently.

I'd hit it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-r4XbTJrw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvHSP3kT16A&feature=related

Maryann's story depresses me. Her friend abandons her and she swings so far back from feeling bitter that she's certain Nichole is not a "boring Christian," but a "thoughtful, ecstatic Christian." What is a thoughtful, ecstatic Christian? Nichole sounds like a rebellious schoolgirl cliché and isn't given any depth so that we may feel confident about Maryann's final conclusions.

She tells the whole story as a jilted lover.

All of the born-again Christians I've met have seemed as reluctant as any priggish, brownie-baking church lady to talk about all of the natural questions that come around when one considers Christianity and the events of the Bible - its conundrums; this seems an obvious thing to say, but wasn't directly brought up in 2001.

Christianity is basically an amalgamation of Messianic Judaism, several Mediterranean mystery cults, and Neo-Platonism. The whole born-again component owes its existance to the mystery cults such as the Isis cult, the cult of Bacchus, the mysteries of Eleusis, and Mithraism.

There are large numbers of people who respond strongly to this sort of mythology. Always have been.

"Christianity is basically an amalgamation of Messianic Judaism, several Mediterranean mystery cults, and Neo-Platonism."

+ the teachings of Jesus Christ and the faltering attempts of people to imitate Jesus and encapsulate the meaning of his life into their own.

i guess under all techincal descriptions i have been.

"born again" is a term out of favor in many protestant denominations these days. guess it depends.

it's really quite hard in contemporary times to try to comprehend what on earth happened to Saul/Paul and if that happens to people today. i think i know people (and i might as well throw myself into the pot) who would say they've experienced a kind of a profound ecstatic joy/peace. in a similar ballpark as a wave of elation or goosebumps [cue cartoon image]. everything today is so measured out and lensed in. even in the church this is often true. with all the forensic evidence of early man, etc, it forced many slices of the church to get really scientific themselves, thinking that was the way to fight the argument.

reading Aimless's post reminds me why. it's like our faith is a cultural diagnosis. (or worse, something scraped from the DSM IV?) i struggle a bit submitting this response because i realize i don't have anything convincing to offer. faith itself is hinged on this notion of suspending doubt in the absence of proof. it really has all the brilliant elements of a bad con job. [cue steve martin tent revival preacher movie clip] i guess the point of the spirituality in my life is not blind belief however. it's the love above and beyond. but i digress.

i think a lot of people who are "born again" react to that change differently. maturity is a huge factor. the story of maryann isn't surprising. impressionable ages. popularity. some of the christian elements in the story could've easily been replaced by anything. reading stories like those is kind of heartbreaking because you realize how much the church fails to live up to it's truer teaching.

I'm not a born again Christian as deep down I always have been.
-- Gale Deslongchamps, Saturday, December 8, 2001 1:00 AM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

wat

"born again" is a term out of favor in many protestant denominations these days.

Yah, prob because it has a bad rap, and a well deserved one. Born-again evangelicals were the entire religious experience of my life til I was 20-something, and maybe I'm just in a period of being angry with them right now but I AM ANGRY with them for making their personal issues my whole idea of religion and spirituality.

she told me they slept together naked, just to be closer.
she told me they slept together naked, just to be closer.
she told me they slept together naked, just to be closer.

My best mate's been making noises about "wanting to find happiness" and even taken it upon himself to "hang out with" the local vicar and to contact some Christian evangelist parents of another friend (completely of his own accord as the latter friend lives outside the country). Up till now he was a heathen. Should I be concerned? Is he having a crisis?

A month or two back he was making noises about how he wasn't sure if he wanted to stay with his long-term partner or not (which came across as an early-thirties existential panic more than rational reasoning) which makes me think the two are connected.

tell him there's plenty of other religious outlets that aren't homophobic misogynist wankers?

Tell him he's an idiot and to see a therapist instead.

Are we supposed to be panicking in our early 30s now!? Damn, I missed THAT ship.

Let him make his own decisions and don't worry unless his personality drastically changes and/or he stops talking to you.

i agree in principle but am concerned that UK evangies have little truck with the notion of "happiness"

I think the problem is that happiness might lead you not to think that you owe a man in the sky a lifetime of submission for everything remotely nice thing that's ever happened to you.

It's weird behaviour for him. I mean, he gets obsessed with certain things (the uncooler the better most of the time) but this is a strange new thing... He justified this the other day "I don't believe in Father Christmas, but I do believe in the magic of Father Christmas". Seems a strange step to take over some commitment-guilt issues to me, but yeah... I dunno whether to berate him for this or just let him get on with it. Whatever makes you happy right?

Eh if he's a thinking person with a half-decent ear for BS and manipulation, he shouldn't last long. Otoh if you see a tendency to self-denial and self-punishment, do keep an eye on him--that kind of ascetic mindset is catnip to the devout.

The first thing that needs to be ascertained here is whether DL is talking about actual Evangelicals or just standard Christians.

I dunno, a mate of mine from uni found God around 26/27 and it was probably the best thing that happened to him, until he met his wife (and he met her through church). He's ditched most of his previous hard-Tory views and is a much better person all round these days. Of course part of that is probably just normal maturing, but I think at least part of his moving away from the right is down to Jesus basically being a socialist.

xpost no i mean the more liberal end of Christianity here. The "sit down and have a cup of tea" types...

Can be hard to tell, the much advertised Alpha Course includes sessions on speaking in tongues.

Alpha Course = bad, nice C of E vicars who probly don't believe that much in "God" = good

He's gone and bought himself that "Teach Yourself... Tongues in Six Weeks" book and tape

My mum also found God in her 40s and I think she did the Alpha Course, and yeah there is some wacky shit in there, but I get the impression that the British variety of born agains is quite different to the US version. It seems to make her happy and she hasn't picked up any homophobia or other beliefs I'd find abhorrent (might help that her brother's gay, or might not I dunno) and she never hassles me or my sister about it. I figure if it helps then let them get on with it.

Is there a Rosetta Stone set for glossolalia?

no glossolalia apps on iPhone ;_;

Yeah, I think this is probably a harmless dalliance akin to his previous obsession with shit cowboy novels and samurai weapons. It's probably nothing, but I do think this recent "search for happiness" could be a cover for some internal conflict he's having trouble coming to terms with in his day-to-day life.

the question from dog latin & in orbit's answers show why religion seems such an appealing thing to people - if I tell you I want to find happiness, you'll be dismissive of me, you'll ridicule me, you'll tell me I'm "an idiot and should seek therapy instead." religious people will tell me it's normal to want to find happiness, which it is. they'll then have what they consider a good answer, and even if it's not such a good answer, it's a damn sight better than my friends telling me I'm an asshole for trying to satisfy an inner hunger; should I lose such friends in the search, good riddance, right?

Though I class myself as an atheist, I do think the hardline attitude taken by actively outspoken atheists can be as damaging, hurtful and altogether discriminatory as that of fanatical religious types. So of course Aero is right here. It's just a surprising left turn from someone I wouldn't expect it from. It's not so much a worry that my pal is going to turn into some pious Bible-bashing godthug, more wondering why he's suddenly become intrigued by religion as an answer to his search for meaning.

you could... ask him?

"HEY MIDLIFE, WHAT'S WITH THIS GOD SHIT?"

there's a lot wrong with that, biggie is having a friend who will ridicule you because you want to find happiness (they aren't your friend) or projecting that ridicule onto others (which you're kind of doing itt) or solidifying your position based on an either/or where one end of the pole is other peoples' negative opinions of religion (which you're doing more of itt).

there's nothing wrong with that inner hunger but it seems to me SOME religious bodies can prey on it and turn it into shit. others are more supportive and foster growth/exploration. it comes down to individuals and context imo. xp to aerosmith

religious people will tell me it's normal to want to find happiness, which it is. they'll then have what they consider a good answer, and even if it's not such a good answer, it's a damn sight better than my friends telling me I'm an asshole for trying to satisfy an inner hunger

I would be susceptible to feeling kind of bad or at least sheepish about having taken that hard line but those people ate 20 years of my life and I just do not have the patience for the whole schtick anymore.

But yeah I'm getting the impression US and UK "Evangelicals" are not the same thing here.

no they're not really. UK evangelicals tend to be a lot more progressive in most respects.

weirdly, the evangelicals I have associated with the most closely have all been the nicest people and among the most liberal I've met; one is currently on a mission in Germany building churches and singing/playing French horn, one is working on a PhD in music and one is in the WA state legislature and went viral earlier this year with a video explaining why his faith demanded that he vote in favor of gay marriage

^ which is the positive side of religion - one that gets drowned out by all the noise surrounding fanatical, hardline values that use the existence of God to justify extreme political and social attitudes.

evangelicals in UK parlance tends to code as the socially right wing end of mainstream protestantism

but it's complicated because they're in many respects opposed to the "High Church" end of the C of E who tend to run equally conservative but in what T.S. Eliot wd've called "anglo-Catholic" style

When I think of born again Christians UK style I think of Mumford and Sons and sadly I must plan for jihad.

whereas when I think of US evangelicals I think of Insane Clown Posse. Truly two nations separated by language.

I smell a collaboration!

xxxpost There's no reason in the world someone can't be religious + liberal. As upthread, Jesus could very well be seen as displaying strong socialist values, and the reason Christianity gets such a bad rap these days is down to cognitive dissonance and textual misinterpretation on a major scale.

I think for some born-agains, it's possible they might see faith as a safety-net or fail-proof when coming to terms with a tough personal predicament or choice. I've been to a few weddings recently - some traditional church ceremonies, other civil non-religious affairs, and witnessing these I can kind of understand the sentiment associated with this. A couple that marries in front of God not only have a duty to each other, but also to their faith to stay together through thick and thin. It opens up a whole realm based on fidelity, problem-solving, working together where perhaps an atheist household might consider splitting-up in the toughest of times. I'm not making light of marriage as an atheist institution here (whatever the case, bonds will vary greatly from person to person. But maybe religion does play a part in justifying certain actions (such as whether to marry someone or not) in one's own mind - i.e. "this is the right thing to do, I have made up my mind and this is the way it will be because God approved it". I dunno, just thinking out loud here..

not really getting involved here but just wanna flag up that:

"I don't believe in Father Christmas, but I do believe in the magic of Father Christmas"

is amazing & is as satisfying a belief system as any other i've heard about

i'm not religious at all but i for sure 'believe' in god on a memetic level

i know that a lot of stuff i believe kind of breaks down at some level w/o metaphysical justification, and then i just kind of lol shrug

I find myself kind of envious of religious people on occasion but I just can't do that believing in god thing.

if I tell you I want to find happiness, you'll be dismissive of me, you'll ridicule me, you'll tell me I'm "an idiot and should seek therapy instead."

this is disingenious since this is a thread titled "born-again Christians" and DL mentioned his friend is hanging out with the local vicar.

I guess it depends on what type of Christianity they are "born again" into. I like religion to have a bit of mystery. I mean, Christianity is based on the Bible, which is an amazing, fantastic book! Most people in the Bible are not perfect people!

I am old enough to remember when being "born again" was cool. I mean, it meant you had some wild life and then you sobered up, well of course you can't do that forever, so you're an interesting person and now someone who can mentor others. My brother attends a Catholic church that has a lot of converts, and his church is so sanitized. Some churches embrace sinners and some don't.

I go to church more since I lost several family members in recent years, but "born again" I am not.

hmmm.... he's starting to take this semi-seriously now... Although he's also saying he doesn't believe in "a God" (yet), he's taken to going on about "wanting to help people" and even ticking me off for swearing. So it's harmless waffle for now I suppose but if this piousness continues I'm gonna be forced to have words! ;-)

is he saying "you shouldn't swear" or "don't swear around me"? the latter is defensible IMO

I've known the guy long enough to know this "no swearing" rule is new to him...

In this case it's something like "this computer isn't fucking working" exasperated kind of swearing btw.

being new to him is not the point; if he's decided to minimize the amount of swearing in his life, it's totally his right to ask others not to swear around him (no one has to listen to him btw)

It has no biblical basis, of course. Except the prohibition against taking god's name in vain, which technically is the only thing that "swearing" means iirc?

xxxpost There's no reason in the world someone can't be religious + liberal.

The great progressive causes of the early 20th century often depended on evangelical zeal.

I exempt Prohibition from Great Progressive causes because obviously these evangelicals knew nothing of David ripping his clothes off and dancing before the Ark of the Covenant.

(no one has to listen to him btw)

well yeah, he was at my house at the time. thing is he's a fairly complicated guy with a very dry, idiosyncratic sense of humour and often one's never sure how serious he's being. Maybe the whole "no swearing" thing was intended ironically, or maybe not. He'd happily go down the pub dressed in clothes you'd expect to see Indiana Jones wear on his day off - it's kind of his own little shout out to preppiness, anti-fashion, bordering on fancy dress I guess, but lately he's started going round dressed like Michael Shannon in Boardwalk Empire and occasionally peppering his speech with a kind of Southern US preacher voice - as though he's treating his new found interest like a study or fascination with which to derive kitschy humour. But when he starts talking about it, the Christian (and Buddhist) groups he's been out visiting he speaks in a very serious and determined way about trying to find "happiness".

sounds like your friend feels like he's not fulfilling his needs in his life, possibly even a crisis of self-image if he's making outward changes like cutting back on swearing.

It has no biblical basis, of course

imo 99% of being part of a religion-based community, or any community, isn't based in doctrine and is more about tradition and social norms. major failure of US evangelicism is trying to do this one-upmanship of claiming you're more scriptural or "correct" than someone else. I have to give the catholics credit, they never crack those bibles.

It has no biblical basis, of course

23 Bible Verses about Using Profanity

Oh for the fuck of shit, those verses are half about something else entirely. Several of them are specifically referring to "idle talk"!!

Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

Come the fuck on.

tbf many of those verses may've been translated by people with agendas

sounds like your friend feels like he's not fulfilling his needs in his life, possibly even a crisis of self-image if he's making outward changes like cutting back on swearing.

Yeah I really think this is it. I think he's trying to justify to himself certain life-affirming decisions he has to make that grind against a lot of his actual wishes and character. He's very much a kid at heart but being made to live an adult lifestyle. So when he and his gf decided to move to a smaller town to save money, he justified it by saying he prefers the peace and quiet and the countryside - which isn't a lie, because he does, but it's not the main reason they moved out. He learnt to drive and bought a car so he could see his friends without having to rely on public transport. This stops him being able to have a drink if we go out into town which is no problem, but rather than explaining that he's driving, he tells people he's "tee-total" or "doesn't drink" - which is nonsense because he does drink when he's not driving.

To me I wonder if this all stems from a wish to feel as though he is staying in control of his own decisions - that the elements and laws of adult day-to-day life aren't the ones impinging on his direction. He's a very smart and creative bloke and yet he's stayed in the same skilled labour job for a very long time. I know he was recently looking at changing jobs, probably to a teacher, but soon became disappointed and disillusioned with the idea when he realised you can't just walk in and start by training on the job. I've got a feeling this new "search for spirituality" is supplementing his need for true direction - as though by continuing on his current path towards family life and a humdrum job in a small town, he feels as though he is still achieving something. One thing he did say yesterday was that "atheists are too busy examining what the path is made of rather than where the path leads" and that "philosophers who question things like 'do i exist? am i here?' are selfish and conceited" i.e. that these are pointless and greedy pursuits that achieve nothing.

it's true that in the original Aramaic it reads But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Fucking Colossians, shit.

Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

The King James version has this as 'yea, yea' and 'nay, nay,' which they told us in seminary we seriously SHOULD try as a swear substitute – not that Mormons don't already have some of the most codified fake swears ever. People did take the seminary teacher's suggestion, in of course a high schoolery snarky way. Or, like a big in-joke with everyone. "AWWW! YEA YEA AND NAY NAY!" Thank you Matthew 5:37

actually some atheists are of a personality type where they don't give a shit about philosophical directions and answers any more than a religious person, and sometimes often less. Where he might wonder if he'd feel more complete by going to church, I am actually wondering what's on tv this weekend.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/stereoblog/Rt9dORvT8cI/AAAAAAAAFP8/vkHtTtGnFsg/s800/spanish-yeye.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Branta_sandvicensis_-Kilauea_Point_National_Wildlife_Refuge,_Hawaii,_USA-8.jpg/220px-Branta_sandvicensis_-Kilauea_Point_National_Wildlife_Refuge,_Hawaii,_USA-8.jpg

lol hueg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53u7LuGJecw

"which is the positive side of religion - one that gets drowned out by all the noise surrounding fanatical, hardline values..."

i've been thinking about this re: global warming, vaccinations -- and as a strategy being reasonable and even-tempered seems to always lose out to fanatical hardlining. So maybe the trick is to infiltrate their ranks and subvert them from the inside? I don't know if ramping up fanatical hardlining on the liberal side is the answer, really, but I guess that comes down to if you think John Brown is a hero or nuts.

sounds like he's turnin into a real cunt, have a word imo

what if he's just infiltrating?