What makes more sense to you: Gnosticism or Christianity?

I believe the Lucifer in Gnosticism is equal to The Christ. Lucifer came down and said, "hey you're trapped, this is the way out" (represented by eating from the Tree).

In the Bible, this is totally reversed and Satan, a once perfect angel, is made responsible for tricking people into a world of death and sin.

This alone makes me side with Gnosticism.

Christiany, on the other hand, is teliological, and is both rationalistic and transcendental. Even more important is the fact that
it is the child of Judaism, and its messainic prophecies.

One important difference is that Christianity sees the body as good, and affirms that in heaven there will a new body and soul. Gnostics see the body as evil, and as the vessel of spirtual decay. That is why
gnostics in the third century were often strictly ascetic, while Christians have always like their wine, except for some Pentecostals.

I was trying to say that the popularity and mysticism of Christianity (while it remaining marginal) in the 2nd century (I was trying to say 2nd and 3rd century, not 2nd and 4th century), coalesced to form a distinct, and what was, and is, viewed as heretical, form of Christianity, which was really much less rational (in a non-judgmental sense) than an orthodox Christianity, which had respect for Judaic history, the Torah, and scriptural agreement.

An orthodox Christian would not find the use of the 'Elohim' (God in a Hebrew plural form) as troubling, but rather it would serve as justification for their conception of God as trinitarian (Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost). One and three.

Most Jews would also affirm the singularity of God in the Torah, and would see the referred to passage as a refutation of false (ie. non-existent/fictional) gods that were non-Judaic, and came from Mesopatamia, Egypt and other such places, I think.

What I see is more likely that Christianity and Judaism evolved from paganism and Gnosticism / Essenes developed along steadily side-by-side. Certain beliefs won out and the others became "heretical."

In my opinion, the "heretical" views make a great deal more sense, even if we're talking about fantasy land weirdo stuff that really makes no sense at all.

The story of Adam and Eve is mythical and historical. It is meant to represent a time when people on Earth (I'm assuming after many years of evolution)lived in harmony with God and Her creation.

Then, at some point, things got fucked. People on Earth did not want to enjoy God's creation, they wanted to BE God, eat of the tree of knowledge, act out in rebellion. (I could see that one coming).

As a result, there was a catastrophic and horrific seperation of God (and Her will for man) and those living on Her planet. Therefore, we get wars, famine, famine, murder, earthquakes, and pestilence. (Maybe there always was earthquakes, but they were not destrucive to humanity). This is a massive and metaphysical change in consciousness; it is called suffering.

Although things got fucked in this state of fucked-up-ness, there were those that remained faithful to God the creator, people such as Noah and, later Abraham. (That is why we call Judaism, Islam and Christianity the Abrahamic religions). They all revere this guy, and believe the chosen lineage follows from him.

Abraham was extremely faithful (to the point of being willing to sacrifice his son), so God trusted him and his offspring with the convenant, the rules that would protect God's chosen people until the time when God would bring a Messaih that would liberate people from their suffering and the terrible conseqences of sin. These laws were very strict, and so was God, eliminating those who couldn't keep Her strict laws.

Many prophets would come along -- Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Nathum -- who told of a day when God's chosen people would bring a savior to the world, but they also foretold (about 5, 00 years ago) that this messiah would suffer and die at the hands of his own people.

The gospels tell of fully human man, who was also fully God, as in perfect, sinless, blameless, full of love, knowledge, and peace. He would live, teach, miracouly heal, and be an exemplary 'light of the world.'. But, as he would often insist, his purpose wasn't to heal, to
dazzle, to teach, or to lead, it was to save!

So he was held on trial for claiming to be a 'King of the Jews' (the annals of the Jewish Sanhedron also accuse him of using witchcraft), and he was crucified (ouch), and died.

According, to the Gospels of Mark, Luke and John, after three days (some people think he was in hell, enduring the price of sin), Jesus returned in material, human form, and spent forty days, hanging out with his disciples and the people of the land, eating, preaching and partying.

The point of all this is that the Christ will grant eternal life for those who accept His sacrifice, and those who don't will be judged based on what they know and what they do. Everyone is essentially accountable for all that they do, but the death of Christ made it possible for all those who are faithful to God to be granted the grace of not having to be totally accountable for all their shortcomings and imperfections in a cosmic, eternal, hereafter sense.

Christ always existed that is why God is reference in the Torah as 'Elohim' and the faithful Jews of the OT were (or will be) granted God's grace, according to Christianity.

Also, there is the belief that for those who put faith in Christ they will be filled with the Holy Spirit (the spirit of Christ let on Earth after his death) that will fill followers with a sense of peace, love, ability to forgive, and sometimes make them speak in tongues.

This is my own, personal sense of Christianity, which makes most sense to me. I like to refer to God as She because it pisses off ignorant fundamentalists and confuses knee-jerk seculars. (And is theologically valid).

-- Star Cauliflower (spen...), April 17th, 2005.

Judaism started out polytheistic and gradually became a monotheistic religion. Basically, Yahweh went from being the hebrews' patron protector god to being the chief god among gods to becoming the One True God.

One has to wonder, though: how is Jesus saving anyone? Is heaven or is paradise after armageddon what we're shooting for here?

yes.

What people don't realize sometimes is that a lot of the religions that believed in many gods ALSO monotheistic, believing in one ultimate god that rules all. So, Judaism/Christianity is not different in that respect. Even with the One True God, the Hebrew term "elohim" referred to "gods" which could include anything from angels to human priests.

I think gnosticism place a heavier emphasis on evil spirits, wheras there is little mention of evil spirits, or even Satan in the canonical Bible.

The Manicheanism is also interesting, but, I think, goes against good
logic. People forget that Christianity has not always been dominated by ignorant right-wing American from the South. Indeed, there has been hundreds of years of the best intellectual minds who have philosophized about Christian theology, such Blaise Pascal, Thomas Aquinas, C.S. Lewis, Doestoyevesky, Tolstoy and Kirkegaard for a few.

Read The Brothers Karamazov!

For me, this makes no difference. I'm just interested in the written word, the translation process and educated interpretation. What some ignorant person believes makes no difference to me or influence my understanding of the scriptures other than to question how a supposedly holy and perfect book could be so misunderstood, perhaps. My mother, for instance, truly beieves it is the word of God and as such God has protected it to this very day and it is the living word of God, etc. She unfortunately has no clue about the various issues religious scholars document that undermine the credibility of this idea.

That's pretty flimsy and entirely intuitive without factual basis. What's the deal with Adam being made in God's image and Eve coming from his rib? Why is the whole religion bent on the woman being subservient to the man? Why is Eve the one who fucked up and helped trick Adam? Why is Jesus a man instead of a woman, why are all the really important figures of the Bible all men? There is some truly misogynist stuff in the Bible ("here, rape my daughter instead of these strange men!")

(My understanding of Christianity gets warped because of my conservative Christian parents, my good friend who is gay, Christian, and very liberal, and my own reading into theology, and my own attempts to understand this mythology I have grown up with and which I find seductive and repellent, beautiful and frustrating. All these voices contradict. excuses, excuses). ;)

praise AZATHOTH!

its much more in depth than this, and very interesting. i really couldnt do it justice, you should check it out.

sheesh, the christianity description is... something else.

cauliflower's description gels with a lot of my own personal takes. not that i have a great sense of what i believe anyway. there are so many issues that seem quite murky... there are large parts of the OT that i find myself at odds with yet comfortably numb with a sort of "reverent questionmark". (someone i respect used to put it like that.)

i like to see jesus's salvation as this... imagine a parent with a set of rules for his children. in many ways, god being a fairly nontangible entity of faith is easy to abstract and it's easy to equate god with goodness and righteousness and his law, the set of rules bounding and describing the spirit of goodness and righteous. and so, imagine one day, if that father i talked about reacted to the wrong doing of his children by punishing himself with the very punishment his children deserved. in that way, it's as if the law itself was cruxified in the place of the lawbreakers, and then 3 days later, the spirit of the law, aka love/mercy/justice rose from that punishment to transcend. as kids, we see just how much our father loves us because he got our punishment. it's much more than just a volcano god power trip at that point. it's like, these rules aren't the important part, the important part is us living in a relationship with everybody based on love/mercy/justice.

even if christianity is totally made up, that is some seriously poetic junk. and my analogy is probably wrong on a 100 different levels, but sometimes i wish more people understood that. hell, sometimes i wish christians understood that. we screw that up all the time.

m.

Is it the description that is something else? Or is it Christianity that is something else?

harold bloom is great. "the lucifer principle" is an interesting book at least.

i think women are downplayed in the bible partly because of cultural issues. i think if you peek around in the NT, you find a lot of evidence of prominent women in the church. that and... look at it from this point of view... getting your name in the good book is not the point. servanthood is the point. humility is the point. being revered is not. inverse power structure. the last is first. the meek inherit the earth.
m.

It's made for a great comic sci-fi book, PK Dick's Valis, and a not as great mythical epic, Harold Bloom's one and only novel, The Flight to Lucifer.

i guess the other part being that your description of christianity largely focuses on details that i find to be somewhat unimportant.

no offense or anything. dude, my description of gnosticism would be pretty embarassing.

xpost... Valis is insane. what a read.
m.

So wait a minute. You find Genesis, Christ and Armageddon "somewhat unimportant?"

To me, this is the nuts and bolts of Christianity: how we got here, how we were redeemed and how it all ends.

...The weirdest, but least influential, surviving Gnostics were the Mandeans, a ascetic sect of between 30,000 and 60,000, located along the border between Iran and Iraq. The Mandeans believe there is a world of light to the North and darkness to the South, and the two are engaged in war. Other than that, they seem to follow generally Gnostic lines, although they hold some secrets to themselves.

The second survival of Gnosticism came through secret societies, which purport to carry on Gnostic traditions through various means. Freemasonry is thought to be influenced by the Gnostics, as were the Knights Templar, who were based in the same French territory where the Cathars lived. Various groups claim the Knights Templar as part of their lineage, including the Illuminati and the Ordo Templi Orientis. The latter organization overtly identifies itself with Gnosticism, and one of its major rituals is the Gnostic Mass, written by Aleister Crowley.

The third survival of Gnosticism is a weird historical oddity. In 1945, a collection of ancient texts were found at the site of Nag Hammadi, Egypt. They had been sealed in jars and buried by an small sect which had a monastery on the site, then forgotten. Because they had been so thoroughly concealed, they escaped the vast book-burning campaign of the early Catholic church. The discovery of the texts provided the first legitimate record of the Gnostics; previously most historical information about Gnosticism was extracted from published church tracts attacking their beliefs...

Creation: God created the heavens and earth.
Fall: All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Restoration: For God so love the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him shell not perish but have eternal life.

11-12, your ideas about Christianity are a little faulty. I suggest if you are interested in learning more the best source is the Bible. Actually reading through the Gospels and the Paulian Letters and then some History and Phrophets,etc. This can clearify many misconceptions. I'll try and respond some more.

Fall: All have sinned

How, exactly? By eating the fruit? Or is this figurative?

and fall short of the glory of God.

Which is what, exactly? Check that Old Testament indecision, slaughter, etc.

Restoration: For God so love the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him shell not perish but have eternal life.

Great. We all know that. Now explain how it makes ANY SENSE!

11-12, your ideas about Christianity are a little faulty.

Please do explain.

I think the distinction is made to show some of how God is involved in relationships. Parallels with our human relationships provide some understanding of this. For example: Jesus as groom, Church as bride.
God as father, Christian as children.
God also as mother rebirthing child.
Mother:Child::Christian:Jesus

I just think these are faulty or premature ideas:
presents an ultimately pointless argument
What I see is more likely that Christianity and Judaism evolved from paganism
the "heretical" views make a great deal more sense

I just think these are faulty or premature ideas:
presents an ultimately pointless argument

I don't see how either side isn't ultimately a pointless argument, unless of course someone is trying to save someone else.

What I see is more likely that Christianity and Judaism evolved from paganism

There is too much info about this to even get into

the "heretical" views make a great deal more sense

To me they do and that is what really matters to me. It is like the plot from "I, Robot." It makes a lot more sense that the "perfect" God of this world is flawed and doesn't realize it than to believe that perfect beings torment imperfect beings for sharing similar traits as themselves (oh, the hypocrisy).

Firstly the Bible says something makes sense only through the Holy Spirit making it make sense to a person. It also says seek and you will find; ask and it will be given. Also that not all things will make sense to a human.

Yet, I think it makes some sense. God's ultimate goal as we see it is to recieve the most glory. Creating humans with free will who can decided to follow would give more glory than machines that automatically follow. As to why is Jesus the only way and not good works, What good could a man do that God couldn't do in a split second? What would be a good way to reveal to man the only way to salvation, yet let them continue to have to decide by faith? (where faith would give God the most glory) To have a man in actual history come to earth and save people, and a book about that man. Some parts are mysterious and not totally knowable. (this is all my own words and a little faulty too)

Isaiah 45:7

NIV: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and CREATE DISASTER; I, Yahweh, do all these things.

NASB: The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and CREATING CALAMITY; I am Yahweh who does all these.

RSV: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and CREATE WOE, I am Yahweh, who do[es] all these things.

KJV: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I Yahweh do all these things.

DBY: forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and CREATING EVIL: I, Yahweh, do all these things.

YLT: Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and PREPARING EVIL, I [am] Yahweh, doing all these things.'
Lamentations 3:38

NIV: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both CALAMITIES and good things come?

NASB: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ILL go forth?

RSV: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and EVIL come?

KJV: Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL and good?

DBY: Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed EVIL and good?

YLT: From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the EVILS and the good.
Jeremiah 26:3

NIV: Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the DISASTER I was planning because of the evil they have done.

NASB: "Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the CALAMITY which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.'

RSV: It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the EVIL which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.

KJV: If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the EVIL, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

DBY: Peradventure they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the EVIL which I purpose to do unto them because of the wickedness of their doings.

YLT: If so be they hearken, and turn back each from his evil way, then I have repented concerning the EVIL that I am thinking of doing to them, because of the evil of their doings.

Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the EVIL which I intend to do to them, so that every one may turn from his evil way, and that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Jeremiah 32:42 For thus says Yahweh: Just as I have brought all this great EVIL upon this people, so I will bring upon them all the good that I promise them.

Amos 3:6 Does EVIL befall a city, unless Yahweh has done it?

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore, thus says Yahweh, Behold, I am bringing EVIL upon them which they cannot escape; though they cry to me, I will not listen to them.

Jeremiah 14:16 And the people to whom they are prophesying, Are cast into out-places of Jerusalem, Because of the famine, and of the sword, And they have none burying them, Them, their wives, and their sons, and their daughters, And I have poured out upon them this EVIL. (YLT)

Jeremiah 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says Yahweh, Behold, I am shaping EVIL against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

Jeremiah 19:3 You shall say, 'Hear the word of Yahweh, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such EVIL upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.

Jeremiah 19:15 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon this city and upon all its towns all the EVIL that I have pronounced against it, because they have stiffened their neck, refusing to hear my words.

Jeremiah 23:12 Therefore their way shall be to them like slippery paths in the darkness, into which they shall be driven and fall; for I will bring EVIL upon them in the year of their punishment, says Yahweh.

Jeremiah 26:13 Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of Yahweh your Elohim, and Yahweh will repent of the EVIL which he has pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore, thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of hosts, the Elohim of Israel: Behold, I am bringing on Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the EVIL that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them and they have not listened, I have called to them and they have not answered.

Jeremiah 36:31 And I will punish him and his offspring and his servants for their iniquity; I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the EVIL that I have pronounced against them, but they would not hear.

Jeremiah 40:2 The captain of the guard took Jeremiah and said to him, "Yahweh your Elohim pronounced this EVIL against this place;

Jeremiah 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I repent of the EVIL which I did to you.

Jeremiah 42:17 All the men who set their faces to go to Egypt to live there shall die by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence; they shall have no remnant or survivor from the EVIL which I will bring upon them.

Jeremiah 44:2 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel: You have seen all the EVIL that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them,

Jeremiah 45:5 And do you seek great things for yourself? Seek them not; for, behold, I am bringing EVIL upon all flesh, says Yahweh; but I will give you your life as a prize of war in all places to which you may go.

Jeremiah 49:37 I will terrify Elam before their enemies, and before those who seek their life; I will bring EVIL upon them, my fierce anger, says Yahweh. I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them;

Jeremiah 51:64 and say, 'Thus shall Babylon sink, to rise no more, because of the EVIL that I am bringing upon her.'" Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

Ezekiel 6:10 And they shall know that I am Yahweh; I have not said in vain that I would do this EVIL to them.

Micah 2:3 Therefore thus says Yahweh: Behold, against this family I am devising EVIL, from which you cannot remove your necks; and you shall not walk haughtily, for it will be an evil time.

1 Kings 21:29 Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the EVIL in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the EVIL upon his house.

2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus says Yahweh, Behold, I will bring EVIL upon this place and upon its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which was read before the king of Judah.

2 Chronicles 34:28 Behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the EVIL which I will bring upon this place and its inhabitants.'" And they brought back word to the king.

1 Samuel 16:23 And whenever the EVIL spirit from [the] Elohim was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the EVIL spirit departed from him.

1 Samuel 18:10 And on the morrow an EVIL spirit from [the] Elohim rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand;

1 Samuel 19:9 Then an EVIL spirit from Yahweh came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing the lyre.

1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an EVIL spirit from [the] Elohim is tormenting you.

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of Yahweh departed from Saul, and an EVIL spirit from Yahweh tormented him.

Micah 1:12 For the inhabitants of Maroth wait anxiously for good, because EVIL has come down from Yahweh to the gate of Jerusalem.

2 Samuel 12:11-12 Thus says Yahweh, 'Behold, I will raise up EVIL against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.'

Judges 9:23 And [the] Elohim sent an EVIL spirit between Abim'elech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abim'elech;

1 Kings 14:10 therefore behold, I will bring EVIL upon the house of Jerobo'am, and will cut off from Jerobo'am every male, both bond and free in Israel, and will utterly consume the house of Jerobo'am, as a man burns up dung until it is all gone.

2 Kings 21:12 therefore thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon Jerusalem and Judah such EVIL that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.

Isaiah 31:2 And He also [is] wise, and bringeth in EVIL, And His words He hath not turned aside, And He hath risen against a house of evil doers, And against the help of workers of iniquity. (YLT)

but I'd read some of these too:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/37UW30R8FKL9X/ref=cm_lm_dp_m_1/103-1914772-5809435

A Pro-Christian, Pro-Bible site that admits it is imperfect:
"The Christian Bible, which proclaims God's love for the world in Jesus Christ, is the witness of the church, not the literal, infallible or inerrant word of God." (from home page)

actually, the Library section of the site is quite different. check the listing out first before talking shit, thank you very much. it's a great collection of writings covering several different aspects of history, religion, science, pop culture, etc. Their Biographies section is top notch. hell, it's the first place I ever heard about Pope John Paul I, among other things.

a list of their longer, more thoughtful entries can be found here

I thought this was kind of funny:

The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy
by C. Dennis McKinsey

List Price: $60.00
Price: $53.34
You Save: $6.66

"Consider the One God Universe: OGU. The spirit recoils in horror from such a deadly impasse. He is all-powerful and all-knowing. Because He can do everything, He can do nothing, since the act of doing demands opposition. He knows everything so there is nothing for him to learn. He can't go anywhere since He is already fucking everywhere, like cowshit in Calcutta. The OGU is a pre-recorded universe of which He is the recorder. It's a flat, thermodynamic universe, since it has no friction by definition. So he invents friction and conflict, pain, fear, sickness, famine, war, old age, Death. His OGU is running down like an old clock. Takes more and more and more to make fewer and fewer Energy Units of Sek, as we call it in the trade"

Gnocchism!

Gnomysticism!

To me, this is the nuts and bolts of Christianity: how we got here, how we were redeemed and how it all ends

i mean, you're right, those are important details... but not the central message i think.

there's the details of the plot and the overarching theme of the story. both are crucial, but i personally find the themes, the whys to be more comforting and a more apt description of why i would want to be a christian.

literalist creation stories and apocalyptic visions are too detached from my reality today. granted, they affect my today, but are still not issues i need to concern myself with as much as the general, day to day business. that's where i interface with christianity, where my rubber meets the road.

m.