2 Evangelicals Want to Strip Courts' FundsFri Apr 22, 7:55 AM ETTop Stories - Los Angeles Times By Peter Wallsten Times Staff Writer WASHINGTON — Evangelical Christian leaders, who have been working closely with senior Republican lawmakers to place conservative judges in the federal courts, have also been exploring ways to punish sitting jurists and even entire courts viewed as hostile to their cause.An audio recording obtained by the Los Angeles Times features two of the nation's most influential evangelical leaders, at a private conference with supporters, laying out strategies to rein in judges, such as stripping funding from their courts in an effort to hinder their work. The discussion took place during a Washington conference last month that included addresses by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who discussed efforts to bring a more conservative cast to the courts. Frist and DeLay have not publicly endorsed the evangelical groups' proposed actions. But the taped discussion among evangelical leaders provides a glimpse of the road map they are drafting as they work with congressional Republicans to achieve a judiciary that sides with them on abortion, same-sex marriage and other elements of their agenda. "There's more than one way to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to take a black robe off the bench," said Tony Perkins, president of the conservative Family Research Council, according to an audiotape of a March 17 session. The tape was provided to The Times by the advocacy group Americans United for Separation of Church and State. DeLay has spoken generally about one of the ideas the leaders discussed in greater detail: using legislative tactics to withhold money from courts. "We set up the courts. We can unset the courts. We have the power of the purse," DeLay said at an April 13 question-and-answer session with reporters.The leaders present at the March conference, including Perkins and James C. Dobson, founder of the influential group Focus on the Family, have been working with Frist to eliminate the filibuster for judicial nominations, a legislative tool that has allowed Senate Democrats to stall 10 of President Bush's nominations. Frist is scheduled to appear, via a taped statement, during a satellite broadcast to churches nationwide Sunday that the Family Research Council has organized to build support for the Bush nominees. The March conference featuring Dobson and Perkins showed that the evangelical leaders, in addition to working to place conservative nominees on the bench, have been trying to find ways to remove certain judges. Perkins said that he had attended a meeting with congressional leaders a week earlier where the strategy of stripping funding from certain courts was "prominently" discussed. "What they're thinking of is not only the fact of just making these courts go away and re-creating them the next day but also defunding them," Perkins said. He said that instead of undertaking the long process of trying to impeach judges, Congress could use its appropriations authority to "just take away the bench, all of his staff, and he's just sitting out there with nothing to do."[...]Both leaders chastised what Perkins termed "squishy" and "weak" Republican senators who have not wholeheartedly endorsed ending Democrats' power to filibuster judicial nominees. They said these included moderates such as Sens. Olympia J. Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. They also grumbled that Sens. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and George Allen of Virginia needed prodding. "We need to shake these guys up," Perkins said. Said Dobson: "Sometimes it's just amazing to me that they seem to forget how they got here." Even Bush was not spared criticism. Dobson and Perkins encouraged their supporters to demand that the president act as aggressively on the judiciary as he has for his Social Security overhaul.[...]Perkins and Dobson laid out a history of court rulings they found offensive, singling out the recent finding by the Supreme Court that executing minors was unconstitutional. They criticized Justice Anthony M. Kennedy's majority opinion, noting that the Republican appointee had cited the laws of foreign nations that, Dobson said, applied the same standard as "the most liberal countries in Europe." "What about Latin America, South America, Central America? What about China? What about Africa?" Dobson asked. "They pick and choose the international law that they want and then apply it here as though we're somehow accountable to Europe. I resent that greatly."[...]As part of the discussion, Perkins and Dobson referred to remarks by Dobson earlier this year at a congressional dinner in which he singled out the use by one group of the cartoon character SpongeBob SquarePants in a video that Dobson said promoted a homosexual agenda. Dobson was ridiculed for his comments, which some critics interpreted to mean the evangelist had determined that the cartoon character was gay. Dobson said the beating he took in the media, coming after his appearance on the cover of newsmagazines hailing his prominence in Bush's reelection, proved that the press will only seek to tear him down. "This will not be the last thing that you read about that makes me look ridiculous," he said.
Fri Apr 22, 7:55 AM ETTop Stories - Los Angeles Times
By Peter Wallsten Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON — Evangelical Christian leaders, who have been working closely with senior Republican lawmakers to place conservative judges in the federal courts, have also been exploring ways to punish sitting jurists and even entire courts viewed as hostile to their cause.
An audio recording obtained by the Los Angeles Times features two of the nation's most influential evangelical leaders, at a private conference with supporters, laying out strategies to rein in judges, such as stripping funding from their courts in an effort to hinder their work.
The discussion took place during a Washington conference last month that included addresses by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who discussed efforts to bring a more conservative cast to the courts.
Frist and DeLay have not publicly endorsed the evangelical groups' proposed actions. But the taped discussion among evangelical leaders provides a glimpse of the road map they are drafting as they work with congressional Republicans to achieve a judiciary that sides with them on abortion, same-sex marriage and other elements of their agenda.
"There's more than one way to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to take a black robe off the bench," said Tony Perkins, president of the conservative Family Research Council, according to an audiotape of a March 17 session. The tape was provided to The Times by the advocacy group Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
DeLay has spoken generally about one of the ideas the leaders discussed in greater detail: using legislative tactics to withhold money from courts.
"We set up the courts. We can unset the courts. We have the power of the purse," DeLay said at an April 13 question-and-answer session with reporters.
The leaders present at the March conference, including Perkins and James C. Dobson, founder of the influential group Focus on the Family, have been working with Frist to eliminate the filibuster for judicial nominations, a legislative tool that has allowed Senate Democrats to stall 10 of President Bush's nominations. Frist is scheduled to appear, via a taped statement, during a satellite broadcast to churches nationwide Sunday that the Family Research Council has organized to build support for the Bush nominees.
The March conference featuring Dobson and Perkins showed that the evangelical leaders, in addition to working to place conservative nominees on the bench, have been trying to find ways to remove certain judges.
Perkins said that he had attended a meeting with congressional leaders a week earlier where the strategy of stripping funding from certain courts was "prominently" discussed. "What they're thinking of is not only the fact of just making these courts go away and re-creating them the next day but also defunding them," Perkins said.
He said that instead of undertaking the long process of trying to impeach judges, Congress could use its appropriations authority to "just take away the bench, all of his staff, and he's just sitting out there with nothing to do."
[...]
Both leaders chastised what Perkins termed "squishy" and "weak" Republican senators who have not wholeheartedly endorsed ending Democrats' power to filibuster judicial nominees. They said these included moderates such as Sens. Olympia J. Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. They also grumbled that Sens. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and George Allen of Virginia needed prodding.
"We need to shake these guys up," Perkins said.
Said Dobson: "Sometimes it's just amazing to me that they seem to forget how they got here."
Even Bush was not spared criticism. Dobson and Perkins encouraged their supporters to demand that the president act as aggressively on the judiciary as he has for his Social Security overhaul.
Perkins and Dobson laid out a history of court rulings they found offensive, singling out the recent finding by the Supreme Court that executing minors was unconstitutional. They criticized Justice Anthony M. Kennedy's majority opinion, noting that the Republican appointee had cited the laws of foreign nations that, Dobson said, applied the same standard as "the most liberal countries in Europe."
"What about Latin America, South America, Central America? What about China? What about Africa?" Dobson asked. "They pick and choose the international law that they want and then apply it here as though we're somehow accountable to Europe. I resent that greatly."
As part of the discussion, Perkins and Dobson referred to remarks by Dobson earlier this year at a congressional dinner in which he singled out the use by one group of the cartoon character SpongeBob SquarePants in a video that Dobson said promoted a homosexual agenda.
Dobson was ridiculed for his comments, which some critics interpreted to mean the evangelist had determined that the cartoon character was gay.
Dobson said the beating he took in the media, coming after his appearance on the cover of newsmagazines hailing his prominence in Bush's reelection, proved that the press will only seek to tear him down.
"This will not be the last thing that you read about that makes me look ridiculous," he said.
Yeah, no shit, sherlock.
Uhm, massive unrestrained hubris always fails in the end...right? Uh, right, guys? Anybody? Massively undemocratic reforms get shot down at some point?
Still, it's nice to know that Vancouver is only a scant 5.5 hours north of where i'm sitting, should the shit start to come down(and the borders aren't sealed).
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Saturday, 23 April 2005 06:52 (twenty years ago)
the courts are already stacked.
all they need is the power to overrule the courts and it's done, they've pissed on the ashes of the constitution. and it'll be time to go.
― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Saturday, 23 April 2005 07:15 (twenty years ago)
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 23 April 2005 08:01 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 08:04 (twenty years ago)
― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Saturday, 23 April 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)
― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Saturday, 23 April 2005 09:41 (twenty years ago)
I also feel that there is going to be a scandal of biblical proportions hit the Republican party over campaign money somewhere down the line. Some of these sleazebags will take a check from anyone and I think at somepoint they will screw up far beyond what we already know about DeLay and some of his cronies into something that will make them look really, really bad.
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Saturday, 23 April 2005 10:02 (twenty years ago)
― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Saturday, 23 April 2005 10:42 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 10:49 (twenty years ago)
― m coleman (lovebug starski), Saturday, 23 April 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 23 April 2005 15:27 (twenty years ago)
I'm not either, but I am a great believer in cosmic payback.
I agree, although cosmic cycles can be eons long...most likely we will all be dead by the time the bill arrives.In the meantime the Christian Right is convinced God has delivered this country into their hands.Every grudge and slight since FDR is being repaid so it might take a awhile for them to get it our of their systems. Let's not forget this is ALL leftovers from Nixon (almost every single Bush advisor has a Dick connection: Wolfowitz, Rove, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld and the rest). We are just seeing the end result of a very patiently laid out and executed plan that took a while to ripen. Rove and the rest cut their teeth during the Nixon years, then sharpend them in Texas. They let the Right Radicals have their say, it keeps the wishy washy Republicans quiet and makes the liberals shake in their boots. Shock and Awe, yes?
But let's not get to scared here..Bush and Rove give more lip service to the Christians than actions (the gay trouble is stirred up to win elections, not to actually attack us defensless queers-it's how he kicked Anne Richardson's ass, yet he has gay friends!). The whole Christian Right influence only goes as far as votes, not money. Let's remeber who Bush really serves...and it is not Christians, they were stepping stones as much as gays and liberals.
I am I being naive? Should I start packing for Amsterdam?
― django (django), Saturday, 23 April 2005 15:34 (twenty years ago)
― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 23 April 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 23 April 2005 15:38 (twenty years ago)
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 23 April 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 23 April 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)
True, but Hitler had his very own, very distinct ideas. Bush is a puppet...in fact the PERFECT puppet. He fully believes those he trusts and his ideals are just a copy and paste from them. Hitler was paranoid and didn't trust anybody. Bush can never run amok, he would be lost instantly without his "staff"
― django (django), Saturday, 23 April 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)
You've got to be kidding. Aside from Fox news and talk radio loons who is cheering this on?
― Richard John Lutz, Saturday, 23 April 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)
― Girolamo Savonarola, Saturday, 23 April 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Saturday, 23 April 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)
I think you would be surprised how much support these people have.
― django (django), Saturday, 23 April 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)
that's true, but never underestimate it. remember, Dobson's show alone is syndicated on 1500 radio stations nationwide. Guys like Ed Schultz are gaining some ground, tho, but it'll be a while to build that much corresponding infrastructure.
xpost
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Saturday, 23 April 2005 17:19 (twenty years ago)
― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Saturday, 23 April 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)
― Maria (Maria), Saturday, 23 April 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)
― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 23 April 2005 18:11 (twenty years ago)
one would say organize, write/call/telegram your congressbitch, fund progressive organizations, that kinda thing.
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Saturday, 23 April 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)
― kingfish maximum overdrunk (Kingfish), Monday, 25 April 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)
can i leave the planet now?
― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 April 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)
― dan m (OutDatWay), Monday, 25 April 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)
well, except for financial hard times often sends folks to church...
yeah, the big problem with dobson is that he hasn't always been such a loon. he's written some decent books on child rearing and things that aren't totally awful and as such, they've been adopted by the larger crowd of christians even outside the right winger types. his cred is annoying. but of course, the more he says stupid shit, the more he isolates himself, and then playing the wounded underdog, he plays up and garners support. martyrdom just ups his cred that much more.
hopefully, at some point, the right pundit/critic/editorial page will draw the distinction between real martyrdom and just plain stupid thinking. just cause you kill or harm yourself for cause XYZ doesn't mean you're actually helping cause XYZ or helping society at large.
well, i don't know the right thing to say, but hopefully somebody smart will hopefully come up with the right thing that will put dobson into an honest position of humility. i think he's probably a good guy whose intentions have been blown to hell through too many "Amen!" type stuff. (no martyrdom pun intended.)
anybody read the salon interview with satrapi today.... ?
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2005/04/24/satrapi/index_np.htmlm.
― msp (mspa), Monday, 25 April 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)
YES, english is my first language! ugh.m.
― msp (mspa), Monday, 25 April 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 25 April 2005 14:50 (twenty years ago)
Can't someone please just catch this man with his pants down? Or maybe, I dunno.....KILL HIM?
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 April 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)
― diedre mousedropping (Dave225), Monday, 25 April 2005 15:47 (twenty years ago)
I'd like to wake up some AM and read about Dobson being discovered(in the words of Martin Amis) "buried under a heap of prostitutes."
― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 25 April 2005 15:50 (twenty years ago)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-4_25_05_MB.html
it's filled with fun statements like:
If you read the headlines, you run the risk of thinking we are headed toward a theocracy.
Alarmists note that George W. Bush invokes his religious faith in many speeches and that his positions on abortion, embryonic-stem-cell research and faith-based charities are informed by it. They decry the law Congress passed to provide federal judicial review in the Terri Schiavo case. Vocal American Catholics bewail the election of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as Pope Benedict XVI....
[....]
Fifty years ago, secular liberals were confident that education, urbanization and science would lead people to renounce religion. That seems to have happened, if you confine your gaze to Europe, Canada and American university faculty clubs.
But this movement has not been as benign as expected: The secular faiths of fascism and communism destroyed millions of lives before they were extinguished.
it's nice that the author makes the effort to continually paints that "lib'rul" = "atheistic"/"anti-religious", etc. also, the deliberate blurring of the concept that "secular" as having the same connotation as "violently anti-religious", like some have tried to connote "humanist".
oh yeah, and connecting "secular" with "totalitarian"...
― kingfish, Monday, 25 April 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)
WASHINGTON - Buffeted by poor poll numbers, Senate Republicans are stressing the Constitution rather than religion or retribution against activist judges as the reason to deny Democrats the right to block votes on President Bush's court nominees. "What I do not want to do is cross the line and say those who oppose these nominees are people who lack faith," Sen. Lindsey Graham (news, bio, voting record), R-S.C., told "Fox News Sunday." "I don't believe that. I don't think that's appropriate." Graham spoke several hours before Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist told a group of social conservatives he wants no part of retaliation against sitting judges. "When we think judicial decisions are outside mainstream American values, we will say so," he told a rally dubbed "Justice Sunday — Stopping The Filibuster Against People of Faith." "But we must also be clear that the balance of power among all three branches requires respect — not retaliation." "I won't go along with that," he added in implicit rejection of recent comments by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. Frist made no mention of religion in his four-minute taped appearance. Instead, the Tennessee Republican, Graham and other GOP senators said repeatedly Sunday that their goal was to assure fairness for Bush's controversial nominees — a yes or no vote in the Senate. "If these senators are not prepared to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities, then why are they here in the first place?" said Frist. The Republicans framed their rhetoric several days after receiving the results of a private poll that showed only 37 percent support for their plan to strip Democrats of the ability to filibuster judicial appointees. Opposed were 51 percent....
Graham spoke several hours before Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist told a group of social conservatives he wants no part of retaliation against sitting judges.
"When we think judicial decisions are outside mainstream American values, we will say so," he told a rally dubbed "Justice Sunday — Stopping The Filibuster Against People of Faith." "But we must also be clear that the balance of power among all three branches requires respect — not retaliation."
"I won't go along with that," he added in implicit rejection of recent comments by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. Frist made no mention of religion in his four-minute taped appearance.
Instead, the Tennessee Republican, Graham and other GOP senators said repeatedly Sunday that their goal was to assure fairness for Bush's controversial nominees — a yes or no vote in the Senate.
"If these senators are not prepared to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities, then why are they here in the first place?" said Frist.
The Republicans framed their rhetoric several days after receiving the results of a private poll that showed only 37 percent support for their plan to strip Democrats of the ability to filibuster judicial appointees. Opposed were 51 percent....
― kingfish, Monday, 25 April 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)
― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Monday, 25 April 2005 18:42 (twenty years ago)
― earlnash, Monday, 25 April 2005 18:52 (twenty years ago)
― kingfish, Monday, 25 April 2005 19:01 (twenty years ago)
...But in truth the filibuster fight is not quite as cut and dry as a Democrat/Republican split. As the Los Angeles Times pointed out yesterday, a group of the country's leading business lobbying associations have let it be known that they won't back the "nuclear option." Doing so, they say, will cause the Democrats to suspend all action in the Senate, which would bottle up several initiatives the business community wants Congress to act on.
Despite this, the New York Times still clung to the line that "liberal groups" are the main opponents of the proposed rule change. Yet even one of the event's organizers, James Dobson, said last night that the Senate has "six or eight very squishy Republicans" who haven't publicly committed to helping change the filibuster rule. Seems the Times doesn't have the same Congressional connections as Dobson, else surely they might have tried to get a quote from one of the "squishy" Republican Senators whose pictures, names, and office phone numbers were broadcast on giant video screens at the event....
Both papers ignore the fact that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales (a Republican last time we checked) once called Owen's dissenting opinion in the same case "an unconscionable act of judicial activism." Sounds familiar, doesn't it? While Gonzales now calls Owen "superbly qualified" for her nomination to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, the liberal People for the American Way pointed out in a July 2002 press release that, "Although they served together for a relatively short time in 1999-2000, Gonzales wrote or joined more than a dozen opinions sharply criticizing opinions written or joined by Owen on the court..."
― kingfish, Monday, 25 April 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)