Liggers - Classic or Dud?

Ligging is great if you are ripping off Metropolis Music or MTV or something like that. I like getting in on the guest list as someone else on the guest list - causing said slackster trouble when he turns up. (Got turfed out of an Elliot Smith gig once because the record business type I impersonated turned up a minute after me). There is always a Dave on a guest list.

What is worse sometimes is people who get put on the guest list and then don't turn up. This reduces the available tickets for regular punters - and payment. What you have to do is make it not cool to lig. I would suggest slapping a sticker on a ligger which says "I am a cheapskate, I did not pay", everyone else gets a sticker saying "I pay to keep this club going".

I pay. Its an honor thing . I respect a club , i should make sure it keeps on .

When I worked at the rekord shop, we used to get free guest places @ a coupla local venues. @ first I thought this was GRATE, because it saved money. However, you did tend to get quite, well, actually very cynical. When it got to the point that it became cool to walk out flamboyantly, well, that's when it got totally out of hand. Looking back (this was, like, 10yrs ago) I feel pretty stupid and ashamed. Mind you, the last of those gigs - loop at newcastle riverside - was bloody rubbish, and I'd have probably walked even if I'd paid. Now, I make a point of paying every time. The last gig I went to, Broadcast, was well worth it. The only downside is a lot of bands now seem to miss newcastle out from their itineraries, which is a drag and a half...

So, Liggers = dud.

xoxo

If its a small night or a friend has put it on I'd rather pay. Big night I'll try an summon up my contacts and get in for free. Hopefully the small night will get sucessful and the friend might ask me to DJ. This is in the context of Sheffield, where I DJed enough to get the right contacts and wher I know most of the small time promoters and some of the big ones.

Best Lig I did though was here in italy. My flat mate , who is from barcelona, went to a gig by a Catalan Band called Tonino Caotone & Arpioni and got chatting to them after shouting some well timed catalan remark. The next night we ended up srinking with the saxophonist and me my current flatmate and my then flatmate got invited to come along on the tour for a bit. We only did 24hrs of it but given the band were with Virgin Italia and they'd had a number one, it was all booze, good food an 4star hotels.

Why when I write an anecdote does it turn into the most boring thing ever?

You're sure we know what you're talking about. I'm not sure I do. I don't know these people you're on about. If they're pals of the band, then maybe they have a right to be on the guest list. If not, then what are they doing on the guest list? If you don't want them to be on the guest list, then maybe you should take them off the guest list.

The real major ethical financial issue of our time: Emperor Disco Carsmile reputedly making money hand over fist and then not giving any to his disc-jockeys.

Basically, the people I'm talking about know lots of industry types. There's no Strange Fruit guest list for friends of Strange Fruit and what have you - in fact even if staff aren't working they have to pay. But I know people who even though I've told them there's no guest list, they've managed to contact the bands' press officers and put themselves on the bands' guest lists! This even though they know nothing about the band, and just want to be able to arrive late and get in for free. It's okay if they do it once or twice, but the same people do it every time and have never paid to get into a SF gig as a result. The one time they couldn't get a press place, they didn't turn up. They seem to believe they have a right to see everything for free. Ooh, it's frustrating!

Personally, I think guest lists should just be friends of the bands or people who are actively involved with the night or bands. Not people who just call anyone they can to get a place. Tempted to just cross them off the list, though that risks annoying the bands when they kick up a fuss. Which they will.

One thing I forgot to add. The whole background to this thread started when I went to see the Rock of Travolta last night. There were a bunch of people who demanded to be on the free guest list, then sat outside the venue for all of the bands, only coming in when the promoter got so annoyed that he'd given up places that he went to get them. These are similar people who when told that Strange Fruit was in financial trouble and needed as many people as possible there, responded 'we'll come if we can get in for free...' Grrrrr!!!!

I'd rather pay than see a night go down or a promoter stop doing things, as so many have in sheffield. There's some people who'd offer me a list place and I'd turn it down, its only fair if you've got zip all to do with the night.

Not similar people, exactly the SAME people.

I'm with what everyone else is saying. It's OK to lig off large corporations who are ripping the bands and the fans off so much anyway. For example, I have no compunctions whatsoever going in on an EMI guest list, when I know that EMI have block bought 200 tickets to said event.

What pisses me off is when people get SO USED to the gravy train that they can't even support small promoters and/or their friends bands. These are the same people who start fanzines for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of getting promos. They'll print up 50 copies of the zine, and send them to all the promotion people in order to get freebies.

It's not as if they don't have the money to get in- for fucks sake, shows at UatG, B&G, The Spitz cost like £3 to £5 to get in- they'd spend that on one round of drinks! They're just doing it for an ego thing!

And it REALLY pisses me off, because it's the same gang of people that used to be my friends that do it. I don't see ANYONE else at SF doing it- people who actually work there will end up paying, all their friends end up paying. So where the fuck do these assholes think they are getting off when even the fucking DJs girlfriends are paying.

The one person in particular who REALLY fucks me off, he leeches off The Lollies all the time. He has NEVER paid for one of our gigs. He has NEVER paid for one of our CDs. Yet, when we ask him to maybe REVIEW one of those free CDs or free shows in his sent-to-promos fanzine, he turns around and starts mewling about his "journalistic integrity".

Anyway, I am really just ranting at this point. I say we cross them off the list and let them take their chances with everyone else.

Paul, name names so we can point and bitch about them. Now, about that guest list place for strange fruit tomorrow night......

Classic, and I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. If it's for work, absolutely essential, because if I'm interviewing an artist it's better for both parties that I've seen them play, heard their record etc. and I hope what I write inspires people to go see/get because time and money will have been well spent (so fair enough). If it's a mate's group, depends on how much the promoter allows. If it's purely because I like a band, I'll see what their PR says. If it's An Event like your Madonna or your Missy Elliott, I'll put in a call on the 'if you don't ask, you don't get' tip.

Guest lists have several useful functions, one of which is you do make sure you are getting in to something which is oversubscribed, like a non-seated venue when you are just as excited as anyone else to be there.

I don't mind paying guest lists, but what REALLY PISSES ME OFF is not being told that I'm on a paying list BEFORE I GO, when I'm skint and have used the last day of my travelcard to get there, and then can't even go in because I've only got enough cash for one lousy vodka. I have been known to strop on occasions like that, but it's never the door person's fault.

Have to say, social socialism is one of my favourite things. When it was my turn to run a launch, I made the biggest lig-list possible and made sure that everyone who ever comped me knew about it.

Paul: sorry not to have mailed you before, the picnicker's £3 SF list is good if you can swing it.

You should certainly cross that person off the list. If he's not cotributing anything to the band/night, and is just leeching, then what have you got to lose. Some of the above posts reminded me of the classic fanzine ligger. "Yes, I run a 'zine, can I review your CD" (Puts cd in collection with all other leeched cds, all from little/independent/self published bands) basically wants a big collection of obscure records, but is too cheap to pay for them. Also makes the independent musician/label owner suspicious of proper 'zine writer/publishers. GRRRRRRR!!!!

xoxo

If people on guest lists are genuinely reviewing something, then that's fine (though note that SF Industry Lists are always paying lists - otherwise we'd never be able to pay the bands as much as we do). Similarly if the people are helping the band or club in some other way (photographs, website design, so on and so forth). It's only when people just expect a list place for no good reason that it annoys me. We really run the club on a shoestring, paying bands around £300, paying venue hire, and still charging only £3 entry. I'd rather give places to people who have actively supported what we're doing.

Anyway, the post-picnic list has yet to be finalised. I'll basically have to see if we have room on an industry list, and will have to ask people to maybe review the show or something. Actually - Spearmint will be available for interview should someone wish to do one.

As for the champion liggers on Saturday... maybe I should point them out on-stage and we can attack them? Though they probably won't have arrived yet...

Guest lists are a funny business... on the one hand they're a hassle for small promoters, at the other end of the scale they're almost a badge of honour. Book publishers frequently send round the guest list for launches in advance as an incentive to come along... "Hey, maybe I'll get to meet Paolo Hewitt, cool!!", etc... just kidding by the way.

In the particular instance of SF surely the simplest solution is to have no guest list at all. Reviewers, etc don't get in free anyway as I understand it, record company types can pay out of their budgets for such expenses, and your mates can be reimbursed at the end of the night if you have made such humungous amounts of money that you don't know what to do with it. It almost becomes a political statement - no dollar, no dancin' - and it removes any ambiguity.

for the sake of a couple quid i'd rather pay. having said that, my friend used to work for a record label and had to go to loads of things, whether she wanted to or not, she was on guest list for all things. only fair, really was for work. once though, we went to see etienne de crecy, and i came along too, and got guestlisted. felt guilty walking past long queue, esp as didn't even like etienne de crecy. after she'd put in her appearance we left and didn't even see him. but then she had to go, and wanted someone to go with.

a friend from school was in hood for a while and i got guestlist for a hood show at highbury garage, didn't feel guilty about that though, because was a friend.

Friends of bands I have no issues with. Basically, every band who plays SF gets one free guest list place per member, and that's it. We're quite draconian about it, but I'd rather the actual fans got in and had a good time.

Sure, I mean, if you're Primal Scream, it's a badge of honour - Did I mention said ligger from hell thought he was on the list for that show because he "worked with the trumpet player's girlfriend" ... reportedly, they were going for the biggest guest list ever at the Brixton Accademy, and held the record for a few weeks... until Madonna played, and the whole concert was one big guest list. And then he wasn't even ON said guest list. I bought a ticket from a scalper for under face value! hah! How I laughed.

I've got the answer...

Strange Fruit - entry £4, £3 with flyer or press list. Ligger guest list £25! Then we can use the ligger money to buy all the non-guest list people drinks!

My mate who works for a record company (hey, we've all got one) got a bunch of us on a guest list for the End once. However they were operating a 2 tier guest list system and we were on the lower tier which meant we still had to queue for half an hour (and it was bloody freezing) and pay, we just didn't have to queue for 2 hours like the proles. Guest list schmest list, I say.

Emma, The End prang people, that's why. They're also known for queuing for the sake of queuing. My publisher did a launch a few years back there and the bouncers were even trying to get him to pay to get in, despite whoppin' big VIP tickets and all that. Luckily, he had the fail-safe line: 'I've actually hired this venue.' Even then, Meathead tried it on a bit more until I just straight-out asked the door girl if she knew tonight featured a bouncer tax, because they were royally pissing off people who'd hire her venue or not because of it. For what it's worth, I didn't see any door tax actually given by people to bouncers going anywhere near the till.

I got my vengeance on the system as when they searched my bag it was fully of snotty tissues (as per usual). Ha!

as a genuine reviewer who loves to see bands live, nothing pisses me off more than a promoter telling me for moths and months before hand no probs, then shafting me on the final week after I've given them column space etc. oh yeah, hang on - a promoter telling em i'm on the list, then getting their only to find I'm not. No hassles paying for gigs, especially stuff I'm looking fwd to, and I review everything I go to unless it is so bad it's beyond comment, which often deserves comment anyway.

What Geoff said, but he should be talking about PRs, not promoters. If I've done a fucking 3000 word feature on someone in the lead-up to a gig, LAMINATES ARE GO. Often these people take advantage of writers' natural insecurity/self-loathing because they'd rather have those skanky West London groupie it girls there to wave at the Evening Standard party page.

If you agree to write a review of SF, or do a lead-up article, I would gladly give you a guest spot. We've never really managed to get much press, having only about three reviews in fanzines in the entire time we've been running despite having press guest lists. In fact, to take a lead from the come on thread, I daresay I'd even give you oral sex if you reviewed us. Well, maybe not.

Anyway, I got the Pram guest list. And there were the ligging people with FAKE fanzines that they write for!!! So I told the record label what was going on and everything's sorted.

We hired the End last year and they did that to us too - holding back people for the "buzz". As I pointed out when I spoke to the bouncer they all have ticketes, its raining, its a Wednesday and the buzz is almost definately in the bottles o'booze doewnstairs of happy hour prices until eleven O'C. He soon got the message when I raised my menacing eyebrow.

Now if only I had got security to do something about the performance fucking poets.

The end are absolute Cnuts with their door policy. They do howver have the best sound system in London so it can be worth it, sometimes

I'm just waiting for some dyslexic racists to start posting on this thread, hee hee.
Guest lists are good if you're skint (like I am most of the time) and friends are willing to let you in free. But stuff like wot's being discussed upthread is just taking the piss. Don't these people have manners?

Where is The End? Why have I never heard of it? Why have I never been there? Oh, probably because I'm not a Ligger With Attitude.

the end is nr tottenham court rd tube station. mr c (of shamen) has a club there on saturday nights. and isn't trash their on a monday?

Its behind new oxford street. I've only been there once, to see A rephlex dilly with Aphex Playing. The sound system is unbelievable. It is one of the loudest things I've heard but you can talk over the top of it, and the quality and clarity is something incredible. It rocks harder than a whole box of monkeys.

Oh, it's where Trash is? I refused to go to that club on the grounds that it has 1) a dress code and 2) a queue. Not, like, the normal, "I'm waiting to see a band I really want to see and get a good view at the front" type queue, but one of those "Behind the velvet ropes, ladies, and we'll let you in if your clothes are good enough, otherwise you have to wait" type of queues which infuriates me even more than The Lig Crew. Funnily enough, it was a former member of The Lig Crew who was trying to get me to go there...

God, what happened to fanzines being there for kidz who didn't want to be a part of the system? Well, I think it's only since about '95 that the fanzine world has been invaded by promo-sniffing cynics using it as first leg up the career ladder (I do have one friend who did her zine that way but she wound up being the kind of girl who's managing 3 chart bands at the age of 16 or whatever. Now, at 22, she's managing Carly Simon or something). Best I can say, Paul, is be up front with them: 'So why have I never seen you on Factsheet Five then? Or at Rough Trade?' Then lay down the law. Sheesh, what's £4 to some kid who can afford tuition fees? They're richer than me!

Unfortunately the way it works on the monthlies is different in terms of getting bands coverage, so I for one can't promise reviews. It's not reviews, it's interviews. First, you hear the record. Then, you wait until the release date and lead times chime. Then, your editor wants the record. Your editor is sent 15,000 records every month (some twunts at the NME actually pay their mortgage with promo sales, my ed. buys dinky Bond Street shoes) and will 'lose' at least one copy that you hand-deliver, so you have to get another one, and then often as not they don't want to run with it, and if they do then ALL THIS LOGISTICS for 400 words. Now I'm only doing it if THEY ask ME, plus I don't go out as much and write across a lot of topics.

This is only a phenomenon in England, because nobody in this place has any fucking money for some mysterious reason. What do you people spend all that dole on? I don't understand this ethos in which trying to avoid paying a whopping £2 cover charge isn't beneath one's dignity, but I suppose it's a culture thing. Then again, none of you have any money, do you?

This whole thread reminds me of the Adam Ant obscurity "Friends":

I'm a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend
I'm a friend of a friend but you don't know me
I'm a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend
And if I come on the night, can I get in free?

Ligger culture is definitely more prevalent in the UK. Why? Oh just guess, our favourite whipping boy, the class system.

I am friend of the band = I am a member of the Old Boys network.

I am with The Press = I am of a higher calibre quality than those nasty common punter folk.

And so on and so forth...

Th!s !s only a phenomenon !n England, because nobody !n th!s place has any fucking money for some myster!ous reason.

It's because we spend all of our spare ca$h on high-quality dental work, tarden.

xoxo