web authoring software

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I want to build a reasonably complex website. I will need to design it fully, not just fit into some templates. I want to be able to do all kinds of things on it - rollover effects, those dotted-underline links which just give you a little text box, lots of images, preferably clickable image maps too, all sorts of that kind of thing.

I don't know how to do this. I'm a programmer, but not in anything like this. I've written plenty of basic HTML, and I'm a fast learner, but something easy to use is preferable. I'd rather not spend any money if I can help it, but will if it is necessary or I can get some much better tools for it.

So what's out there? What's free, what's worth paying for? Also, I'll need to think about hosting, and I know nothing about that either. All help will be gratefully received.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

your ISP probably provides webspace with your customer account - you're now on broadband right? you could use that at least initially and you'd want a snappy domain name (i recommend 123reg.co.uk) that sends people to the server that your site is hosted on.

i'm not sure about web authoring packages lately as i only use Dreamweaver MX which is simultaneously a bit hard for novices and a bit rubbish for pros but i'm sure others can suggest good free or cheap software here.

so are we allowed to know what the site is for/about?

$V£N! (blueski), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I've used Dreamweaver and it's pretty nifty and easy to use, but I am imagine I am considerably less of a programmer than you are (I don't ever refer to myself as being a programmer.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I do it professionally. Is Dreamweaver available for free? I should check at work - we have site licences for loads of things that entitle you to have it at home too, and I know Dreamweaver is used there. Which also means I know who I could ask for tips or help.

I use BT, which is somehow involved with Yahoo too, and I can't see where they offer webspace, but it does seem likely. I want to use a lot of high-res images, so space might become an issue really quickly.

Um, I kind of don't want to talk up the project here, because I can imagine either taking ages to get it going or starting it up and then not keeping the development going. It's not some brilliant idea anyone will pinch or anything, and no money involved. (Ask me when you see me next, Steve.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd recommend Dreamweaver for sure, but alas it isnt free - you can d'load a 30 day trial and then crack it if you're prepared to but if this is pro work, I suppose thats best left ;)

Their Fireworks tool is good for the image manipulation/rollovers/javascript stuff.

Macromedia make a whole suite of all thesr tools (DW, Flash, Fireworks et al) that are fantastic for this sort of thing (I can hear proper html/CSS coders out there frothing in rage at me, but nehhh). Its expensive, but I'd say very well worth it to streamline large projects, especially if yr coding/html is rusty like mine.

Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/?promoid=home_prod_studio_082403

Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course all the code can be done up simply in notepad/vi/whatever but you totally gotta know yo' shit to do that.

Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

skEdit is the best for hand-coding. GoLive or Dreamweaver if you're not quite sure what you're doing....

Really, just get a book on CSS / HTML. Forget abotu dHTML or JavaScript. not worth your time.

giboyeux (skowly), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

If your uni has any old MSDN discs you can get Front Page which is rubbish but would be free.

If you can understand eclipse or Jbuilder you can figure Dreamweaver.

Rufus 3000 (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

oh god don't get front page!

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah I was going to say that too! For the love of holy html, FrontPage is cack. Dont touch it!

Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I want to be able to do all kinds of things on it - rollover effects

Design in Photoshop - Export from Imageready

those dotted-underline links which just give you a little text box

Probably some CSS + Javascript? Find a site that does it, view source and copy their code.

lots of images, preferably clickable image maps too

Photoshop --> Imageready

walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Ahh yes Imageready was the prog I was trying to recall the name of (I kept thinking of Indesign and I knew that wasnt right).

Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

It turns out that I can connect to a work network from home and therefore use Dreamweaver for free, so I think I'll try that way as a first attempt. If that's too slow I might buy it - it's available for £70, so that's not so bad. I'm keen on finding one product which will let me do everything I want, rather than learning lots of different things for each kind of operation. Also, turns out that the person who runs training courses for Dreamweaver in the university sits about twenty feet from me, so that might be very valuable.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

what is the point of exporting from ImageReady?

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

martin, as a programmer i really think you'd be happier with just a text editor. if you haven't sussed css and javascript you'll get it in a snap from w3schools and on-line stuff.

ja (_ja_), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Learn one CSS.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I take your point, but graphic design is really important in this (sadly, as I'm not that great at it), so I want a GUI to work with.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah I agree I mean I know coders knock DW for being GUI but it really does speed things up, no matter one's skill level. So I find anyway. I know the code I'm producing, but if DW will write it in one hit, it saves me time, and thats good.

Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, and I know I'd have no problem learning the extra HTML and javascript needed, but getting the look I want from that would be hard, for me.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

then yeah photoshop too.

no need for DW tho.

ja (_ja_), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

using notepad is okay for small amendments to your html but for long sessions of web page construction DW is ideal and i dont understand the hate.

Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Dreamweaver is perfect for the pro and the novice. It allows you drag and drop and writes scripts for you, but you can also manually edit the code easily if you get frustrated with drag and drop results. Also, for web hosting, godaddy.com is great. They're cheap and spacious. I found a lot of limitations when using the free webspace from my ISP (no .php or .js files could be stored, and no pop3 for my domain email addresses).

Rebekkah (burntbrat), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know if this is what is happening here, but there are people who regard the use of any GUI with some contempt. For me, I love them.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:22 (twenty-one years ago)

hating on the gui is more like disparaging people using the gui who have no understanding of the logic/script involved, I guess. You'll pick that up by association. Also there are some really bad guis out there!

Oh, you will probably want to make sure that the webspace you're using either has php/mySQL installed or that you can install them--that will let you do lots of fun little tricks and such.

teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

guis always suffer from hiding stuff that *i* want to see. (that said, i speak as someone who often codes with whitespace visibility turned on because i'm fussy about my tabs and spaces so...). i'd also rather say that something was 400 pixels wide rather than have to position it. and why learn another editor when i've been using the one i use for almost 20 years?

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not trying to persuade you to do so, Andy - I just find that there are people who look on people who prefer GUIs with contempt. The look of this is very important to me, which is why I want something where I can easily see what I am making.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i love GUIs!i think i was put off by totally useless Front Page, but also what koogs said. those web authoring tools often put in crap you didn't ask for.

you can always see what you're making in the browser window tho?. i don't think i understand, but it's not an issue - i was just suggesting what i thought you might like. whatever you are happy with. really!

ja (_ja_), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

css css css . . .for almost everything you're mentioning. it's the wave of the future in terms of web layout. do you need help with graphics? can't do those anyway in dreamweaver.

Miss Misery (thatgirl), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

yeh i was gonna say, you can pretty much bypass something like Dreamweaver if you just dump a selection of named div tags within a html page and then set up the stylesheet within which those div classes are defined. example html:


title of website


put text and/or images in bere
put text and/or images in bere
put text and/or images in bere
put text and/or images in bere
put text and/or images in bere

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

ha, sorry, I'm new here (check source).

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, dreamweaver is not going to help you with graphic design. you need a graphic design program. unless you do a stylee css site, but that's only going to get you different coloured boxes and borders on things, not give you flashy icons or anything.

otherwise, dreamweaver isn't bad. I use it all the time for one-off pages. you should still know html though or it can fill in a lot of weird and useless code. exporting from imageready: URGH. I hate this. I work on contract jobs with a designer an in the itnerest of getting stuff done fast and allowing her to bill as much time as I bill we do a lot of pages like this and then I just clean up the code and do whatever php work needs to be done. But imageready does the stupidest shit.

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

hey, sort of offtopic, but is anyone here a MEGANERD web developer kinda guy who is super talented and needs some MONEY? or know someone?

p-two, Wednesday, 11 May 2005 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I still don't get why exporting with ImageReady is necessary.

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 15:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Imageready is only necessary for creating rollovers and imagemaps. Well, it's not necessary but it's quick and easy. If you're already designing with Photoshop and you are good with going in and cleaning up the code manually, then it's a lot easer to do these simple things with imageready then messing around with Dreamweaver.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

cutting and pasting the javascript or HTML seems easier. . .

Miss Misery (thatgirl), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

seldom bother with rollovers and maps these days but if i do then out of habit i just do it via Dreamweaver and edit the code if it ends up botched.

$V£N! (blueski), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just installed a Citrix client to connect to the Windows Terminal Service at work, so once I remember to get my password tomorrow* I can use Dreamweaver from there.

* this may sound idiotic, but I don't use WTS at work more than a few times a year nowadays, so my password is noted down there with the other 95 (not an exaggeration - I think it's actually 97) I have cause to use.

Now I need to start planning the first pages, and some overall structural and design and writing principles. (I don't suppose there is any risk of this, but no one should be holding their breath in excited anticipation, as this will be, even if it's as good as I hope, of only mild interest to a handful of ILXers. And I'll have to do a fair bit before it's even worth offering a URL.)

Ha, I just tried my first choice of domain names, and while the com/net/org varieties are gone, I could go for .co.uk or .info, among others. I didn't know that latter existed. Is it designed for informational sites? Because that could be a decent category for what I am planning. Hm, and if I put a hyphen between the two words, only com has gone. Is there some principle of what extensions belong to what kinds of site?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

123reg want to charge me £53 (including VAT) to register a .net name for five years. Is that reasonable? Are other types cheaper?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Sounds about right. $35 US dollars a year is pretty standard, so transfer that into pounds, and you got yourself a bargain.

slightly more subdued (kenan), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I note that a .co.uk address, while not hugely accurate as this is not at all corporate, is about £3 a year.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

domain extentions don't really matter, you can use whatever. at some point someone cared but I don't think anyone does any longer.

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

seldom bother with rollovers and maps these days

Um, that's nice but those are both things Martin specifically mentioned in the original post. Use whatever you want I was simply throwing another option out there.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It occurs to me I did once hand-code a clickable image map - it was a diagram, so I only had to deal with rectangles.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

If I registered a domain name for two years, what happens in 2007? Do I have an automatic right to renewal, or might I get told that someone else has it next?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

depending on the people you register from, you're usually notified in advance and given the chance to add years before it expires, or you're expected to keep an eye on it yourself but you can still add time or renew it before expiration.

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks - I'm really grateful for all the help and advice on here. I dare say I will want more...

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

$35 US dollars a year is pretty standar
waaaay overpriced

A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Wednesday, 11 May 2005 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I think he meant for five years.

teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I have been delving into the CSS zone over the weekend due to the comments on this thread and I have to completely agree with you all. It's made my HTML life *sooooooooo* much easier, it's about a hundred times more flexible.

I only have to alter the one CSS file now to change all my pages look and feel. THANX iLX ONCE AGAIN!

Ste (Fuzzy), Monday, 23 May 2005 07:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Dreamweaver seems a bit rubbish at positioning images - or HTML is, which may well be the case. Am I going to have to get the hang of making extensive use of tables to be able to put images with captions where I want? Actually, I am still not sure how I would insert an image with text around it - um, imagine a 3x3 grid with text covering all of it, and I want to put a pic with caption in the right hand cell of the middle row. I can see how I could separate that out with a table, but not how to make text flow through the rest of it; and if I just use align=right with an image, how would I caption it when there is text all around?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

that's exactly what drives me crazy about html, martin!

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

in that case martin, it might be easier to integrate the caption text into the image with photoshop or whatever. I'm pretty sure there's a more elegant way around it...do a search on alistapart.com, they have some great tutorials.

teeny (teeny), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks, Teeny, but so far I can't get Photoshop to offer me type that looks like it wasn't built out of lego.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I had a look on alistapart, and didn't get far. And looking around magazine, art and newspaper sites, people don't do what is common in books and mags very often at all. There really should be a facility to add a caption for an image!

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Another thing I want to do is tooltips - either the usual sort on hover, or some sort of link/clicking that shows them. I am thinking of the kind of glossary/dictionary stuff that you don't want to send someone to another page for. Maybe I'll have to settle for a link to a glossary page, but using the title tag. Or can I use some kind of null hyperlink, so that its only purpose is to display that?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I am informed that the Photoshop Elements tool to which I have access is a cut-down version, so I can't do all I would wish in that. Is there anything good for designing a logo that's available for free? Nothing that demands a training course to knock one logo out, preferably.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know much about graphic programs/design, but I think you may have to go torrent a cracked version of something--I don't think anything more sophisticated than MS Paint will be free. If it's just one logo, you may want to ask a friend, although that may be defeating the purpose of you learning things!

Regarding little popup definitions, you should decide whether you want something that pops up when you simply mouseover the text, or something that pops up when you click. Think about how often you'll use this feature, how optional its use should be, and how much work you'll be asking the reader to do. Perhaps you want to hack the ABBR or ACRONYM tag (although this has problems in IE, and is really not the proper thing to do), or do a simple popup like this fellow does with his asterisks, but probably the most elegant solution is (yep!) create a new CSS class.

Check out the source code of the first paragraph in this page and see how the author uses the ABBR tag and a class called "help" to do what seem like the same thing. You can poke around his css and see how he did it.

teeny (teeny), Monday, 30 May 2005 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a graphics program called The Gimp which you could try Martin. I think Andy recommended it already (elsewhere if not here) and it's free afaik.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 30 May 2005 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

It is. http://www.gimp.org/

caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 30 May 2005 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

You should be able to hovers with CSS. Here is a fairly good CSS portalish site: http://positioniseverything.net/

Also, the O'reilly DHTML Cookbook is awesome. I have it on my desk & I check things in it all the time.

And if you want a nice graphics program that's not too expensive, buy Adobe Photoshop CS- should be about $100, but you're getting 90% of the USEFUL bits of the full version of Photoshop. I've used regular Photoshop a lot, but I have CS on my ibook these days because it works just as well for rendering web graphics. If I was going to go back to putting on shows of composited images and whatever, I'd probably go back to full Photoshop. The CS version is more than adequate for making buttons, cleaning up images, making logos, and so forth.

lyra (lyra), Monday, 30 May 2005 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I have free access to that Photoshop Elements and Paintshop Pro, and really expect to have little use for any graphics program, so won't spend $100 on any. I'm downloading the GIMP stuff right now.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

So far I have been unable to get any text to appear on screen at all. Like Photoshop, there are layers claiming to contain text, but whatever colours I set it or the background too, I can't see it. I may end up doing this in something ridiculous like Word and then fancying a JPEG version up afterwards.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

What are you trying to use that won't show any text on-screen?

caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 30 May 2005 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

GIMP. There must be something I'm missing, clearly. I may end up using my very first attempt, after some laborious pixel-level touching up or some such.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm. Stupid question: have you accidentally made the layer invisible? (in the Layers dialog, there needs to be a little eye icon next to the layer).

caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 30 May 2005 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I have kind of given up now - it seemed to be just as hard to use as Photoshop, which I've been struggling with lots already, but was ever less responsive to what seemed like sensible moves. The text didn't appear at any point, other than in the pop-up box when you use the text tool. I have decided to offer bribes to a friend to do this one logo for me, as I have already spent too many hours on it.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 30 May 2005 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

In GIMP I always anchor/flatten my text layers once I'm done, to the background or another layer. Same as what I do in Paintshop really

There's not much you can do in HTML to get around the image layout problem, other than using dreaded tables or just manually positioning your 'img' tags within the text body.

There is a site that produces fancy looking logo's for you, for free. I'll see if I can find it again but never used it myself so don't know how good the results are

Ste (Fuzzy), Monday, 30 May 2005 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

One other thing (one last thing of many...): what is stopping my nice new webpages getting to the edge of the browser? There is maybe 1-2mm white around the edge of the page, and I can't work out why.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 17:20 (twenty-one years ago)

we may need more details on how your background and layout are organised, unless someone out there is clever enough to suss it already?

Ste (Fuzzy), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

..but it sounds suspicously like a table/padding problem

Ste (Fuzzy), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It is organised as a table, via Dreamweaver - at the top/outermost level we have this:

table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"

That was the first place I looked, but it didn't look a likely explanation.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Pages have a margin by default. Try modifying the body tag with "margin=0". Or, maybe "leftmargin=0, topmargin=0", etc.

slightly more subdued (kenan), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

have you set the leftmargin and rightmargin in the body tag to 0?

aaarghhhh YOU BEAT ME TO IT!!

Ste (Fuzzy), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

(admittedly I didn't know that and I had to mess around in Dreamweaver a bit to get my answer)

Ste (Fuzzy), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

That's got it, Kenan! Thank you!

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, having loaded up my ten or so pages (templates, CSS, new logo and all) to my ISP's free space and had a look at them over the web, I discovered that bleeding Yahoo automatically add adverts to fuck your pages up!!! To every page! These are the price for their free hosting! Fuck that, obviously, as it really ruins the pages, so I need hosting.

Not sure how much space I will need. My first ten pages barely top 100kB, but I have biggish plans, so will definitely want 50MB in the medium term, and it might grow beyond that. Other than no fucking with my pages, what criteria are there beyond price? Any recommendations? How do I begin to guess at my bandwidth needs, which I assume are part of the deal? I'm not expecting my site to ever be busy.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

If you want a little room to grow, you'll want maybe 100 megs of space, and leave room to use a database and some scripting as well. Bandwidth will likely not be an issue. You should be able to get by with at most $10 a month.

There are a million hosts out there, so I can only recommend the ones I've used.

http://siteground.com/
http://qwk.net

slightly more subdued (kenan), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't have answers for your hosting questions, Martin, but I can steer you in the right direction re: captions. You have to make a little nested table with two cells: a big one, on top, for your image, and a little one at the bottom, for your text. Then you can align=right in the table tag, rather than the image tag, and it ought to behave the way you want it to.

Something to remember about pop-up tooltips is that the ALT attribute in images automatically appears as a tooltip when you mouse over an image with Internet Explorer. If you create a custom tooltip with CSS and/or javascript you may get both the tip you created, PLUS the ALT text tooltip - so leave out the ALT text if you make your own tooltip.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

The left and top margin thing is not standard - as far as I know, you'll need different voodoo for IE and Mozilla/Firefox/etc.

CSS fixes it for everything in one shot: body { margin: 0; }

joygoat (joygoat), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

This is Internet Explorer getting it wrong, though. ALT is the text to display if the image can't be; it shouldn't be displayed as a tooltip. If you want a tooltip, use the TITLE attribute - but don't drop ALT, it's compulsary.

(xpost)

caitlin (caitlin), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I have started using title, and I worked out that table thing, Tracer. I really appreciate all the help here.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Siteground's package looks excellent to me, Kenan, and I'll be surprised if I can find as much as cheaply - and you've dealt with them happily?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

my thoughts on the text in gimp problem: did you change the colour after painting the background but before adding the text? (it's easy to miss) otherwise you end up with text the same colour as the background, which you can't see (although you should see a yellow box showing you the bounding box for the text)

(oh, try the scripts in gimp: xtns in main main - script-fu - buttons / logos, defaults can be quite nasty but plenty of options to play with)

there appears to be a limit to how much of a title attribute text appears when you mouseover (this works with links as well as pictures btw, maybe even divs and spans (yep)) so it may not be suitable for handling the little popup definitions (um, firefox shows ~70 characters, IE all of them in one long line, both browsers undisplay them after a couple of seconds). a little javascript popup thing is only about 10 lines of code. (http://www.webafrica.co.za/kb/developers/tooltips_floating_captions.html is quite clever - it overrides the TITLE attribute using css so you don't have to change anything)

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 08:19 (twenty-one years ago)

three weeks pass...
Hmm, I just looked at my nice new website at work in an IE browser (I use Firefox at home) and there is one place in particular where the size has gone spectacularly wrong - http://www.japanese-arts.net/painting/artists_hiroshige.htm. A table is defined with width=55%, with the image inside it defined with width=95%. It looks fine at home, but on IE at work, it takes up 70, 75% of the width and screws the whole thing up. Is there something I can do about this?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

> with the image inside it defined with width=95%

ie is just ignoring the width=95% (and i must say i've never seen anyone use that before). generally resizing an image using a different width and height to its native size is a bad idea (browser has to download the entire thing (bandwidth problems) and then generally uses a bad (but fast) algorithm for the resize so it looks poor). much better to resize the picture yourself and use a fixed size.

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

quite

also http://www.positioniseverything.net/ is good for fighting with IE madness

Britain's Jauntiest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

fwiw martin, that pic resizes beautifully in safari, but i suspect ie will make it look blocky

Britain's Jauntiest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

No, it looks fine, it just isn't resizing. Absolute sizes are all very well, and I use them a lot, but if you want it large, that can fuck up badly for some resolutions, just like it is here.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 15:54 (twenty years ago)

maybe it's best not to combine images that large with paragraphs of text? you could just use a thumbnail image that links to the full image, though i guess at a smaller size people wouldn't see the detail of the painting which might be a shame.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 15:59 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I'm wondering if I should start using thumbnails in places. I do like one image per page, where there is something highly relevant (as there often is), and there is a size that feels right for each one. I guess I'll settle for bringing the image down to the right size and hoping it works for other resolutions.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 16:08 (twenty years ago)

Another question: I downloaded SmartFTP and have only just spotted that it was a limited free trial. Are there any free downloadable FTP clients? I don't need a fancy interface - I'm used enough to command line, if need be.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 24 June 2005 22:52 (twenty years ago)

I use filezilla and love it!

teeny (teeny), Friday, 24 June 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

I use the trial version of Smart - you can keep using it without paying, tho sometimes it won't start until the third attempt for some weird reason. Filezilla sounds good tho, I should probably switch.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 24 June 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)

ah, if it's one of those trial things you can keep using, I'll stick with it rather than DLing a new one. I have used Filezilla, and it is better than Smart, yes.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 24 June 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

> I'm used enough to command line, if need be.

ftp is available from dos command line (if such a thing exists in anything newer than w2k). but yes, filezilla much better

koogs (koogs), Saturday, 25 June 2005 10:27 (twenty years ago)

Me again, with another dumb question. http://www.japanese-arts.net/painting/artists_yoshitoshi.htm looks really shit in IE - I don't exactly know what it is doing and why, but you lose a fair amount of text. Can someone smarter than me with HTML look at the source? It's all down the bottom of the page, after the template stuff. I've tried:
resizing the image - its natural size at my resolution (1024x768 - I guess it may well look utterly different at a different screen res) almost fills the width, but short of making it a lot smaller, the problem persists at any size
defining the width in the img tag by percentage
putting a break or a paragraph tag between the caption and the start of the body text
changing the hspace value
Nothing seems to sort it. I'll be grateful for any other ideas.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 27 June 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

the pic is in a table placed top right within the main table, right?

i'd be tempted to give the picture a row of its own within the main table so all the text will always be underneath.

koogs (koogs), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 07:41 (twenty years ago)

take the align=right out of the table tag below the [h1]Taiso Yoshitoshi, 1839-1892[/h1] and the text will sit under the photo.

(btw you have two close TDs after the image title.)

koogs (koogs), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 08:08 (twenty years ago)

Thanks, Andy - I can't imagine why I didn't think of that one. It has worked. I had already noticed and removed the double TD closing - that was a copy and paste error from a page with two images and a caption in that table.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 21:01 (twenty years ago)


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