Justify Your Bigotry!

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1. Pick a broad group of people whom you hate/dislike (the religious, homosexuals, Republicans, goths, hippies, the rich, tall people, etc.)

2. List all of the bad experiences you've had with them that are your justification for hating/disliking them.

3. Feel the rationalizations washing away the slightly unclean feeling that comes along with vulgarly justifying your prejudices to yourself, because really at heart you're a good person.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

eat yr wheaties, short people

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

I don't know about you Dan, but I just can't stand black people. They look weird and smell funny.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:49 (twenty years ago)

At heart are you a good person, dan? Or do you have a slightly unclean feeling that comes along with vulgarly justifying your prejudices to yourself, because really at heart you're a good person?

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

1 -Anonymous posters
2 - I seen some posts from anonymous posters that are pretty fucking moronic. They always wants to make controversial points that they won't come back to support. They probaly live with their mothers and listen to n-sync.
3 - mmmmmm, yeaaaaah.

― dolph sweet's maid (Dave225), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

Dave has a point.

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)

1. i don't like junkies
2. one just headbutted me on the subway, on my way home, just now
3. at least i'm not the one getting them high?

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

I am genuinely tired of living in Mexican neighborhoods. Everywhere I go, I seem to end up living in a Mexican neighborhood, and you know what? Their music FUCKING BLOWS. All of it, without exception. I am unashamedly, universally averse to any and all music that comes from or is directly related to Mexico. "I know! Let's make everything a polka! Only REALLY REALLY fast! And let's boom it out car windows! THE SAME EXACT BEAT WITH NO VARIATION IN TEMPO FOR ALL ETERNITY HOW GREAT IS THAT!"

It's not great at all. It's the opposite of great.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

(Wait, Dave?)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

http://www.geocities.com/emurphy23/giantbanana.txt

― best thread evar, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

xxpost Upside: good food. So I guess it's a tradeoff.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

show one all details, dood.

― geyser muffler and a quarter (Dave225), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

i like mexican music.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

Most Orthodox Jews are out of touch with the real world, insular, patronizing, and generally not fun/cool even if they think they are.

This comes from my experiences with my mom converting to Orthodoxy and trying to push it on me/making me attend lame events with her lame community friends.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

i feel bad for saying mean things about gypsies on ilx. it was only based on the 20 or 30 times that various gypsies had tried to steal from me/rip me off at work. but that is still no excuse.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

I like mexican music, I don't like self proclaimed trolls much though.

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

Los Tigres Del Norte siempre! SIEMPRE LA MUSICA!!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

1. if you criticize israel or any jewish person, you are ipso facto an anti-semite.
2. if you criticize any black person, you are ipso facto a racist.

(1) and (2) are entirely consistent w/ this thread's premise.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:00 (twenty years ago)

I also think most traditional Mexican music sucks. No African influence whatsoever, no groove or interesting rhythms.

I've heard some Spanish language hip-hop tunes with tuba basslines that I've heard, though, those rule.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:01 (twenty years ago)

from kurt vonnegut's novel bluebeard:

Intolerance was an important issue of debate between my parents. Father was of course, a good fascist, and was intolerant of just about everything, except of course, Nazi’s. Mother would ask that he not bring any of the uniformed, swastika laden soldiers into her home. My father would then accuse her of gross intolerance. My mother, rather than play the semantic game, would get out pencil and paper and begin her list.

Things Mother is intolerant of:

· Nazis

Things Father is Intolerant of:

· Jews

· Communists

· Queers

· Buddhists

· Lesbians

· Chinamen

· Negroes

· Hindus

· Japs

· Muslims

· Unionists

· Pollocks

· Environmentalists

· Arabs

· Catholics

· Mexicans

· Moslems

· Liberals

· Socialists

· Feminists

· Albanians

· Russians…

Then Mother would search around for more paper. Mother always made a big thing out of searching around for more paper.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:02 (twenty years ago)

I HATE ALL PEOPLE EQUALLY!!!

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:04 (twenty years ago)

I also think most traditional Mexican music sucks.

THAT'S BECAUSE IT DOES. I am willing to be an asshole about this particular point. Mexican music is a olympic-sized swimming pool full of suck.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:06 (twenty years ago)

1. if you criticize israel or any jewish person, you are ipso facto an anti-semite.
2. if you criticize any black person, you are ipso facto a racist.

(1) and (2) are entirely consistent w/ this thread's premise.

Yes, because you see there is no distinction between "I don't like this person" and "I don't like this Jew".

― The Ghost of Shouldn't Lawyers Have A Better Grasp Of Semantics Than This? (Dan , Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:07 (twenty years ago)

okay, i'm flashing on that old commercial of grandpa and the kid on the rowboat. "you are predjudiced, johnny." "why grandpa?" "because you think of jimmy as your jewish friend and not as your friend."

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:11 (twenty years ago)

"1. if you criticize israel or any jewish person, you are ipso facto an anti-semite."

Israel /= Judaism, despite what various racist, fascist, asshole orthodox jewish nutjobs may tell you. (if Israel was equatable with Judaism, I would happily offer myself as exhibit A "the self-hating Jew", and I know for a fact there are many others like me)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)

Shouldn't Lawyers Have A Better Grasp Of Semantics Than This?

http://www.geocities.com/emurphy23/ohsnap.txt

― ILX shitfit festival, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)

i don'[t know where that d came from. PREJUDICED.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

i feel bad for saying mean things about gypsies on ilx.

We forgive you.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

Yes, but 'hating' a Republican or a religious person is still not the same as hating a person because of their ethnicity or eye color, Dan. The later two are not something you can really choose to change. When I say, for example, "Fuckin' Republicans" is this prejudiced? Yes, because I am pre-judging some Republicans whom I have not had the honor to meet. However, what I am really implying is that I think that their political views are injurious to the collectivity known as the country and that I meet few of them for whom I have any respect intellectually. Are there exceptions? Yes, of course, but they merely serve to prove the rule. Could it be me who is full of it? Absolutley, but I know (sometimes) my own mind and I am every bit as willing as they are to state it.

Am I prejudiced against religious people? Guilty as charged. Even granting all the good things that organized religion has done over the years, I see in many of them an unjustifiable exceptionalism that makes them think they are superior to other people based on un-provable claptrap, a tendency to beat other people over the head with their 'superior' morality while blaming their victims for not adhering to their credos and deluding themsleves that their claims of superiority aren't baldfaced, run-of-the-mill attempts at domination that would be obvious in the behavior of a marmot or a walrus. That they prefer ideology over happiness is a sin to me and that they are so willing to castigate temptations that they don't personally feel is cheap and mean. You can dress the pig up, but the religions of the book teach us to hate sex and our bodies and I find that repulsive. I know many Christians and Jews that I like personally but I don't hesitate to tell them, if pressed, that I do not approve of their theology. I'm sure, if pressed, they would say the same of my beliefs.

Is it ever legitimate to talk of liking or disliking large groups or subsets of people or is it always too reductionist?

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:32 (twenty years ago)

I am prejudiced against the obese!

― -rainbow bum- (-rainbow bum-), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

just as long as you don't make fun of any obese celebrities, mang.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:48 (twenty years ago)

I AM SO MUCH MORE TOLERANT OF EVERYONE ELSE AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW IT
I AM BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE I AM NOT FETTERED BY YOUR SELFISH LAZY LITTLE OPINIONS
I HAVE A SNIDE SMUG PUTDOWN READY FOR ANYONE WHO IS NOT PERFECTLY PC LIKE ME
MY OPINIONS ARE BANAL BUT CORRECT
I WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW MUCH BETTER THAN YOU I AM
I WILL MAKE JUST THIS ONE POST LETTING YOU KNOW I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND THEN POST NOTHING MORE BECAUSE I AM JUST SO FUCKING OVER ALL YOUR PETTINESS BUT I THOUGHT YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND OH YOU LITTLE DEARS HOW DO YOU GET ALONG WITH THOSE QUAINT LITTLE THOSE OF YOURS YOU REALLY OUGHT TO BE MORE LIKE ME KTHXBYLOL

― TEH GHOST OF ILXBOT, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

dude, take a valium

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

See earlier post. Justify my bigotry.

― geyser muffler and a quarter (Dave225), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:32 (twenty years ago)

Awesome!

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

That doesn't appear to be an anonymous post to me.

― Allyzay flies casual (allyzay), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

because ghosts are real?!

― geyser muffler and a quarter (Dave225), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

-BOT

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

Oh.

― geyser muffler and a quarter (Dave225), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:40 (twenty years ago)

I didn't post that, not that it matters, since I never log in and have thus abdicated my right to be positively identifiable. Regardless, fuck you.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:42 (twenty years ago)

Yeah yeah, I hate robots! Fucking automaton, don't have a goddamned conscience blah blah...

― Ian Riese-Moraine. Sweeter than a lorry load of white Toblerones. (Eastern Mantr, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

1. People who think that they're oppressed in some stupid way, like others wanting to keep a Christmas tree in city hall or stop saying "Under God" in the pledge or whatever, but who also think it's a great idea to beat detainees in Abu Ghraib or pee on Korans in Guantanamo or whatever because if they weren't clearly guilty of terrorism they wouldn't have been arrested in the first place! Or because hey, they're not tolerant in Saudi Arabia, so why should we tolerate Muslims? (I'm not sure if there's a label for these people, let's make one up. Problem is you don't know who they are until they open their fucking mouths.)

2. BECAUSE THEY'RE ASSHOLES WITH NO GRASP OF COMPASSION OOOOORRRRR A PROPER LEGAL SYSTEM!

3. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGH...hey, if i actually do hit post I will feel better won't I?

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

The ghost of ilxbot reinforces my stereotype of anon posters quite nicely.

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

I don't use "TEH" when it's the real me typing, see?

Leon OTM!

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

I thought it was excellent satire!

Seeing as this entire thread was started as a rhetorical "fuck you" gambit, I fully endorse taking potshots at me for it.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:47 (twenty years ago)

(Excellent satire of me!)

― The Ghost of Oh, That Wasn't Clear (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:48 (twenty years ago)

I thought this thread was going to be about Pat O'Brien.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:48 (twenty years ago)

Yeah yeah, I hate robots!

you do not! you said in the other thread that you were so brought of your aquisition of your new Czerka Corp FuckBot T-16! You claimed it could give head FAR better than the older, more-specialized Z95 "Head-Hunter" model!

3. Feel the rationalizations washing away the slightly unclean feeling that comes along with vulgarly justifying your prejudices to yourself, because really at heart you're a good person.

hee hee hee.

― kf (kingfish), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)

I don't like people who deal cocaine and heroin.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, to go back to a point I missed before because of the allcaps, yes it is not the same exact thing to hate someone for their ideology as it is to hate someone for their genetics. I'm sure that comes as great comfort to the people who have that ideology but use in a constructive, positive manner.

There is a crystal clear analogue to the way some of you people treat the religious and the way I was treated when told, "You know, I hate niggers but YOU'RE DIFFERENT" as a child on more than one occasion. Why don't you actually THINK about that similarity instead of going "LALALALALALALA I'M A GOOD PERSON"?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

due to friends' deaths, people becoming boring and doing stupid things, etc. There's at least one fellow roaming around northern Illinois right now who I really, honestly might not brake for should I see him crossing the street in front of me. xpost

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:58 (twenty years ago)

DAMN! Guilty as charged! xxpost

― Ian Riese-Moraine. Sweeter than a lorry load of white Toblerones. (Eastern Mantr, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:59 (twenty years ago)

I'm disappointed that wasn't Tom M! I thought it was a very sharp and smart and apposite post, and in his best style!

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)

Some of my best friends are anonymous Ilxor posters...

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:07 (twenty years ago)

can ILXors just all agree to not berate and shame people into changing their ways and beliefs into more acceptable and enlightened ones? it's not gonna happen and only makes for assholery on both sides.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

can ILXors just all agree to not berate and shame people into changing their ways and beliefs into more acceptable and enlightened ones?

I lost you after "all agree". We can't even all agree to ignore posters whose sole reason for being on ILX is to wind people up.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:13 (twenty years ago)

ha like ilx has any power.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

oops, why are you oppressing and berating me with your viewpoint?

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

1. The elderly.

2. They wear too much cologne. They drive poorly, slowly and dangerously. They think they know more than everyone else. They do not understand and refuse to learn newer technology. They think being old is an excuse for bad behavior. They click and grunt and moan and belch and fart and don't care who has to listen to it.

3. I still feel unclean, but I know one day I'll be old and the younger generations will feel the same way about me.

― Rebekkah (burntbrat), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

I really hate ultra-religious and ultra-nationalist Israeli settlers (as opposed to the kind that are just in the territories cuz it's cheap and will probably leave if asked). The ones I hate the most are American Jews who leave the states to go settle in the territories. I hate these people because they are leaving behind a (presumably) decent life in the States to make life even worse for already suffering people for purely ideological and/or selfish reasons (they like the "adventure" of "pioneering")

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

Is Kenan not a Morrissey fan then?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

I love the idea of anon posters taking PERSONAL offence to comments about anon posters.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:09 (twenty years ago)

I think someone I'm bigoted against should tell me that. I'm kind of nervous that I'm glaringly awful to some group and I don't even notice!

The best I've got is that (1) I tend to resent people who make me jealous by being superior to me in something that I work really hard at, (2) and I assume they must be snobby and superior. (This is especially problematic when they are my best friends because then I can't even assume bad things about them, I love them but still resent them.)

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

xpost haha that's great

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

really, the junkie woman's head hurt my shoulder. i wasn't just saying that.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

aww

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

1. Pick a broad group of people whom you hate/dislike THE PEOPLE WHO BLOCK THE SUBWAY DOORS

2. List all of the bad experiences you've had with them that are your justification for hating/disliking them. TOO MANY. THEY MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO GET OFF THE CARS WHICH MAKES THE PEOPLE ON THE PLATFORM BE PROACTIVE AND PUSH YOU FURTHER INTO THE CAR

3. Feel the rationalizations washing away the slightly unclean feeling that comes along with vulgarly justifying your prejudices to yourself, because really at heart you're a good person. FUCK THEM. I HATE THOSE ASSHOLES.

― Je4nne ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

I'm feelin hstencil's junkie hatred. I think its cause I live right by a methadone clinic.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

1. OLD PEOPLE

2. BORING, SMELLY, GROUCHY, SLOW, BIGOTED, BAD FASHION

3. I KNOW

― Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:31 (twenty years ago)

(didn't see Rebekkah's post)

― Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

I almost like encountering those people, Jeanne, especially when they are at least on the large side and male. I try very hard, if I'm getting off the train, to get right in their faces, make them back way the hell up so that as many people as possible get on ahead of them. (It feels a bit too much like bullying if they aren't men who are bigger than me, stupid as that is in many ways.)

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

1. kids today

2. gadda no respect

3. and take off that stupid cap

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

if you criticize israel or any jewish person, you are ipso facto an anti-semite.

Depends on what you mean by criticism. It's OK to criticize Israel. Israelis sure do, just as Americans are often the biggest critics of America. I've never heard such talk called "antisemitic." But when the rhetoric heats up, especially on the Internet, "criticisms" have a disturbing tendency to lapse into outright hatred and stereotyping. When it gets to the point where outrageous insults are hurled at "Zionists" as a euphemism for "Jews," sorry, it's not out of line to describe such a speaker as antisemitic.

(Eisbar, I'm not saying you're doing this.)

― mike a, Wednesday, 8 June 2005 01:56 (twenty years ago)

a lot of this boils down to STUPID PEOPLE SUCK. which i'm 100% behind. but is it bigotry? do i hate stupid people for being stupid or for doing stupid things that annoy me?

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 02:05 (twenty years ago)

1. Tourists
2. stop standing in the middle of the footpath gawking at buildings and walking really slowly 4 abreast and let me GET BY DAMMIT.
3. No, we are not Sydney. Thats why we LIKE IT HERE. Go back to Sydney and quit whining.

― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

I actively discriminate against baby boomers. I hate white, middle aged people, particularly middle classed, rascist arseholes. The only run-ins I have ever had with strangers have been from this group.

― You fondle my trigger then you blame my gun / Kate (papa november), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

Israel /= Judaism, despite what various racist, fascist, asshole orthodox jewish nutjobs may tell you.

I'm just glad this Israel = Judaism meme hasn't infected anyone other then those orthodox jewish nutjobs.

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 02:20 (twenty years ago)

i dislike libertarians

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

(hahaha bnw!)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

I'm not fond of libertarians, either, Caitlin. I've never liked a single one I've met. I don't know what it is about them, but the ones I've encountered possess these very off-putting personalities.

― Ian Riese-Moraine. Exposing ambitious careerists as charlatans since 1986. (East, Wednesday, 8 June 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

There was a segment of my high school friends who were Libertarian baldies who enjoyed driving into the Twin Cities and beating up racist skinheads. I liked them.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

What color laces do libertarian skinheads use?

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

It's OK to criticize Israel. Israelis sure do, just as Americans are often the biggest critics of America. I've never heard such talk called "antisemitic." But when the rhetoric heats up, especially on the Internet, "criticisms" have a disturbing tendency to lapse into outright hatred and stereotyping. When it gets to the point where outrageous insults are hurled at "Zionists" as a euphemism for "Jews," sorry, it's not out of line to describe such a speaker as antisemitic.

an article about this (c-c-c-controversial)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 13:12 (twenty years ago)

What color laces do libertarian skinheads use?

I don't remember now! I wanna say blue?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

(xpost I will have to read that article when I have time to actually concentrate but a quick skim paints it as extremely thought-provoking.)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

Just to clarify: I don't think opposition to Israel's land policy translates to de facto Jew-hating. I'm thinking more about ZOG-style conspiracy theories.

― mike a, Wednesday, 8 June 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

Stevem, that's a very interesting article.

― M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 14:51 (twenty years ago)

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